Are repentance and faith conditions of salvation?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by PappaBear, Dec 13, 2003.

  1. PappaBear

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    I have had one elsewhere on this board state that the Calvinist position is that repentance and faith are conditions for justification.

    I have had another answer elsewhere that they are fruits of it.

    Both claim to be average run of the mill ordinary Cals. So, what do most Cals believe? Must one repent and believe to be saved? Or does one repent and believe since they are saved?
     
  2. Pastor Larry

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    First of all, clarify what you are talking about. Your title says "Are repentance and faith conditions of salvation?" Then your post says "I have had one elsewhere on this board state that the Calvinist position is that repentance and faith are conditions for justification." Then your last two questions says, "Must one repent and believe to be saved? Or does one repent and believe since they are saved?" You very fluidly exchanged words that are not exchangable. Justification has a very particular definition in Scripture. It is not entirely synonymous with salvation. Salvation is a much broader term and can mean any one of several different things depending on teh context. It is hard to answer until we know what you are talking about precisely. Please clarify for us.

    Additionally, please quote this person who said that faith and repentance are the fruits of justification. I have not seen that here. I don't read everything, but that is not one I have seen in the several years that this forum has been here.

    I will give a couple of answer however.

    Most Calvinists will say that faith and repentance are the fruit of regeneration and the cause of justification. All of it put together is salvation broadly speaking. A more narrow definition of salvation would lead us to say that faith and repentance bring salvation.

    But again, using terms precisely is very helpful in pinpointing the question you want an answer to.
     
  3. russell55

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    Yep. Faith is a condition of justification. We are counted righteous on condition of faith. We believe God and it is counted to us as righteousness.

    What exactly did they say? Did they say that faith and repentence are fruits of JUSTIFICATION?

    The common Calvinist order of salvation goes like this: regeneration brings repentence/faith and on the basis of that faith we are justified. These things are instantaneous, but the logical order is regeneration (or rebirth)/faith/justification.
     
  4. Yelsew

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    One can die with unrepented sins, and still be saved thru faith. If one dies without faith, yet is repented to the hilt, the one is still not saved.

    No one can die who is not already justified!

    Jesus' Atonement for our sins, Justifies all mankind!

    Many die who are not sanctified!

    The Faith of each individual is what Sanctifies them.

    FAITH alone is the only requirement for Salvation!
     
  5. Sularis

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    Weee I get to disagree with Yelsew

    Demons have faith

    the initial moment of salvation requires more then faith

    it requires a work of man - a work of which man cannot boast

    Repentance

    Faith and Repentance ALONE
     
  6. Yelsew

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    You clearly indicate that you do not believe the words of Jesus. Jesus said "whosoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life.

    What is one who has faith saved into? Everlasting life is the only correct and acceptable answer, because that is what Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah promises! Now you do believe that the son of God cannot be anything less than God...don't you?

    Now yes, I made an error in my previous post because I did not say that the object of one's faith is paramount. having faith in Satan is not the same thing as having faith in Jesus.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    If what you say is true, what's to prevent one from boasting? Let's say we have two different people one a serial killer the other a candy store thief. Both of them come to faith in Jesus, neither can have more faith than the other, you either have faith or you don't have faith. But would you say that the serial killer has more to repent from and thus his/her repentance is greater than that of the candy store thief. That's something to boast about is it not? Then repentance cannot be a requirement for Salvation. SALVATION must be by FAITH ALONE!
     
  8. Frogman

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    Amen!...So this means you have relinquished the thought that salvation can be lost?

    The one who is forgiven the most will love the Lord the most. But if either of these persons are in fellowship with Christ, they will possess a humility that will prevent them from boasting. This is why that repentance cannot be accomplished apart from God leading and granting it to an individual.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    Repentance cannot be separated from faith. Saving faith include repentance. Just a few of many verses will suffice to show this.

    Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

    Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

    Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

    Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

    Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

    2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    In this next verse, "faith" and "repentance" are used interchangeably. What is called "believing" in v. 17 is called "repentance" in v. 18.
    Acts 11:17-18 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

    Here, repentance is called a foundational issue, meaning something that comes at salvation.
    Hebrews 6:1 Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    Repentance is not an addition to faith, it is a part of faith.
     
  10. Me2

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    "Repentence of dead works, and faith toward God" are conditions in salvation..

    which can be said....

    Recognition of self being spiritually dead with NO POSSIBILITY of escaping under self power

    and the acknowledgement of only God being capable of rescuing self from spiritual death.

    Me2
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Frogman,
    Amen!...So this means you have relinquished the thought that salvation can be lost?</font>[/QUOTE]NO! What I said should not lead one to make that conclusion. As long as one believes and believing is the condition of the human spirit when the flesh dies, the person who does believe is saved. However if one believes today but does not believe tomorrow and dies in the flesh tomorrow, that person is lost and cannot be saved, because the condition of his spirit is not one of believing.

    The one who is forgiven the most will love the Lord the most. But if either of these persons are in fellowship with Christ, they will possess a humility that will prevent them from boasting. This is why that repentance cannot be accomplished apart from God leading and granting it to an individual.</font>[/QUOTE]"Yes, but I received more forgiveness than you"...is still boasting, and that is not permitted by God, therefore it cannot be a condition of salvation!
     
  12. Yelsew

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    My deepest apologies. I formulated a response to your post here and thought I was replying to your post when in fact I was editing. Please forgive me. It was in no way intentional. Please feel free to respond again to my post if you wish.

    [ December 15, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  13. Yelsew

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    NOW PUT THEM IN THEIR BIBLICAL ORDER! Nothing happens to the human spirit until it believes, and the human spirit can do nothing until it believes.
     
  14. Ransom

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    Sularis said:

    the initial moment of salvation requires more then faith

    it requires a work of man - a work of which man cannot boast

    Repentance


    Repentance itself is a gift granted by God (Acts 5:31; 11:8; 2 Tim. 2:25).
     
  15. Yelsew

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    Apology accepted,

    Larry, Your belief is legalistic, in that you make the declaration that one must be "perfect" in order to be saved. Jesus said the one who believes shall be saved. The verses you posted indicate a condition that takes place once one believes and not before one believes. As in Luke 13, Jesus is saying that if you believe what I am saying, and in believing repent from your current attitude, you will not perish like those Galileans.

    What was the prevailing Israeli attitude concerning the occupation of Israel by Rome? The Jews were openly defiant toward the Romans. The Israelis, Like certain of the Iraqis who are openly defiant toward the Americans who are there to help them have the same kind of freedom that we enjoy...Though Rome's intentions were probably not as noble, is open defiance that often was dealt with by the sword. Jesus was telling his listeners that unless they repent from that attitude they will likewise perish. This was not a lesson in Salvation. If you read on vs 4 and 5 give another example.

    In Acts 3:19, Peter was addressing the crowd of Jews who had gathered because the beggar who was cripple is now standing, and indeed clinging to Peter and John whom God worked a miracle through. Peter is telling the Jews that they, as a whole, must repent from their sinfulness so that their sins can be forgiven. Remember Larry, the Jews are God's Elect and they are misbehaving badly even putting to death God's own Son. Remember the parable of the vineyard left in the care of the "chosen", and when the distant owner sent His messengers to collect the owner's due, the chosen beat up the messengers, and when the Owner sent his only Son the chosen Killed the son. Peter is telling the Jews you must repent so that your sins, the sins of "the chosen" can be forgiven. Larry, I'm surprised that you don't read the context.

    Acts 17:30 Paul is addressing the Athenians at the Areopagus. Read the context Larry!

    Mark 1, Jesus begins his ministry in Galilee by declaring to the nation Israel, the time has come, change your ways and believe. He is not saying anything more here than 'from this day forward, there is a change, believe and thou shalt be saved'. He did not make repentance part of salvation, He remains consistent through and through, it is by believing in him that one receives the salvation promise. All who do receive him through faith are saved, those who don't receive him are not! IT IS THAT SIMPLE Larry.

    Luke 24:44-49
    IN CONTEXT Larry, What is the purpose of repentance? That's right forgiveness of sins, NOT SALVATION. Remember Atonement paid the Penalty for sin, but FAITH ALONE brings SALVATION!

    God is not being slow, but allowing time for all to come into the condition of repentance which is defined as:
    This condition is not SALVATION, but rather the condition of Contriteness that God requires of those who believe already! Belief remains the ONLY requirement for Salvation, because without belief, there can be no reason to change from haughtiness to contriteness. FAITH ALONE leads one to repentance. In this passage Peter is telling the reader, and Peter's initial readers were Jews, that God is looking for HIS Elect to be contrite of spirit, humble. meek, etc. Even so, God saves those who believe in Him, but those who believe in HIM will become repentant!
    parens and BOLDing added are mine. Notice the order Believing first, then receiving the Gift, then Repentance...Amazing!
    This is saying 'Enough of the Milk of the Faith, let us Go on into the meat of the FAITH'.

    Yes, it is fundamental that one turn away from dead actions, but who will do that? The unbeliever certainly will not, it is the one who already believes that repents, It is the one who has Faith that will be baptized, it is the one who has faith that asks for and receives "laying on of Hands. It is the one who believes that accepts the resurrection of the dead and that there is an eternal judgement.
    I hope you can see by now Larry that it is FAITH that causes repentance and that repentance causes nothing but is a condition of the spirit of the believer. It is by repentance and the resulting changes in our demeanor, that we demonstrate our faith in God.
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    Now, let’s try again … :D

    I never said anything of the sort. If one was perfect, he wouldn’t need to be saved. Salvation is only needed by sinners. To repent is not to be perfect. It is to acknowledge our imperfection.

    [And I agree with Jesus. Those who believe will be saved. Repentance is a part of belief. I already said that.

    Where in Luke 13 did Jesus say anything about believing?? Did you just add that in because you thought he should have said something about it??

    To say that this was “not a lesson in salvation” just won’t work. The issue was “sin” (cf. v. 2) not Roman domination.

    You certainly didn’t expect this to serve as an explanation of the passage did you??? Come on, you know better than that. Of course, Peter was telling the Jews to repent. That is what was necessary for sins to be forgiven for salvation. You go way out of your way to ignore the context of what Peter was saying. I did read the context. You are the one ignoring the words.

    No kidding. You think I didn’t know that??? And what did he say to them??? God command all men everywhere to repent. It is explicitly clear. And why should they repent?? Because there is a day of judgment coming.

    It is simple. How can you miss it?? Christ is consistent that repentance is a part of saving faith.

    Faith in the atonement is what brings forgiveness. It is an aberrant theology that separates forgiveness of sins from salvation. You cannot have one without the other.

    But that order is not found in the text. What is amazing is that you missed this. Read it again. Verse 17 and 18 describe the exact same thing. It does not give an order in which they come. V. 18 restates what v. 17 says. Read the verse. It is crystal clear. Belief led to the same gift as “he gave us at the beginning.” Refer to Acts 2 to find out what that gift was (to save you the trouble, it the Holy Spirit). And remember that all along, you have maintained that belief brings life. Now look at v. 18. It is the response of the people learning from what Peter said. They acknowledge that God gave them repentance (not the same gift above) and it was a repentance that leads to life, not comes after life. Therefore, your order of “belief then life” compared with Peter’s order “repentance then life” shows that belief and repentance both come before life. Furthermore, as I said, v. 18 is simply restating what v. 17 said. In v. 17, Peter is speaking; in v. 18 the people are understanding what Peter said in v. 17. This is simple.

    But you used no Scripture to show this (for obvious reasons … you don’t have any). Repentance is part of saving faith. I would not quibble that faith causes repentance necessarily. We repent because we believe that God will forgive our sins and grant us salvation. If you do not repent, then you are not saved, period. I did nothing but quote Scripture. You didn’t even give a half-hearted attempt to address that Scripture. The truth remains clear from Scripture that repentance is a necessary part of saving faith.
     
  17. Me2

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    Yelsew,

    your Absolutely wrong Yelsew. We receive a new spirit first. then we listen to the Holy Spirit!

    the Holy spirit cannot spiritually communicate to us until we receive a new spirit that can hear Him.

    which means we receive a new resurrected spirit to hear the holy spirit.

    THEN we begin to learn of our new nature. which is a combination of "the law and the spirit of life".

    as humans we first begin to follow the law to try and please God. until we discover that its impossible to follow. the Holy Spirit teaches us...

    Our first lesson..

    1. we discover our incapability to please God.
    2. we discover our incapability to escape spiritual death.
    3. we discover Gods plan of salvation to rescue us from spiritual death.

    as hebrews 6:1 expresses the same...

    foundation of repentance from dead works
    faith toward God,

    doctrine of baptisms
    doctrine of laying on of hands
    doctrine of resurrection of the dead
    doctrine of eternal judgment.

    this is also referred to as the Doctrine of Christ. the foundational knowledge of each Believer...(2 john 1:9)



    that simply stated: we are in spiritual death with no hope.
    God rescues us from spiritual death through no effort of our own by giving us a new resurrected spirit.

    it is a work completely accomplished by God towards Us.
    and we have nothing to do but accept the truth.

    ***

    Now some of ya'll want to refer to repentence as saying your sorry to God and would he please forgive us... thats not "repentance of dead works".

    repentance OF DEAD WORKS. is our attempts to follow the law to please God. or in other cases. We attempt to Follow the law to overcome SIN. or in another case its our attempts in escaping spiritual death.

    repentence comes into the picture when we discover that "dead works" is our own attempts and not faith in Gods Power..we repent or turn from our own method of dead works and turn to Faith in God.



    we ask for forgiveness for attempting to defeat sin under our own strength and not through faith in Gods abilities to overcome our incapabilities.

    thus repentance of dead works and faith in Gods abilities do Go hand in Hand in salvation.

    Me2
     
  18. Yelsew

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    I never said anything of the sort. If one was perfect, he wouldn’t need to be saved. Salvation is only needed by sinners. To repent is not to be perfect. It is to acknowledge our imperfection.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, let us determine what "being saved means.

    If we are saved,
    What are we saved from? What I read in scripture is that those who are saved are saved from death, the second death Rev 20 14,15.
    What are we saved to? What I read in scripture is that those who are saved are saved to everlasting life, John 3:16 and many other.

    Do you agree?

    If one is required to repent before one can be saved, is that not a legal requirement that man must meet? In other words man must do something to gain salvation.
    However, if Salvation is based on whether or not one believes, as Jesus states, then man is not required to do anything, but merely to accept what has already been done for him.

    Do you agree?

    You say that Salvation is only needed by sinners, Paul disagrees, "for all have sinned", and elsewhere, "there is none righteous, no not one". So salvation is what ALL mankind needs, but why? If not saved, man is cast into the lake of fire, the second and final death Rev 20:14,15. But, for all who believe in God, that is, have FAITH in God, they pass from death into life. What life? Eternal life, because they are not judged and cast into the lake of fire, but are separated (sanctified) as sheep are separated from goats.

    When we say among ourselves that one is saved, that merely means that one has accepted the promise made by God, and that one believes the promise to be true, and behaves accordingly. The promise has not yet been fulfilled for the one who remains in this natural life. But when he/she passes from this natural life retaining faith in the promise, into the spiritual realm, the Promise of a reality accepted becomes the reality!

    Do you agree?

    Now then to repent means to change from what one does into something different that one does after repenting. In other words repenting is making an "about face" and heading in a different direction. Why would one make such a change in direction? Because one's beliefs have changed!

    You probably also think that repentance is forgiveness, well according to scriptures it is not! Confession of sins is what brings forgiveness. Just as your apologized for deleting my post, I was obligated to either forgive you or to not forgive you. I choose to forgive you because I believe in your sincerity, and repentant heart! Now it is up to you to demonstrate that you repent from doing that "sin" by not doing it again...for the same reason, of course. However, if you do do it again, and if you do confess again, I am obligated once again to make the decision to forgive or not forgive. That is the way God works regarding our sins. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. By forgiving you, I have exonerated you from guilt! By you not doing the same thing again, you give me no cause to hold you guilty. Do you see the truth of scripture here?

    Your statement that Faith and Repentance bring salvation is therefore not true to scripture, but are a form of legalism. It is FAITH ALONE that brings about not only salvation but all the other works of the spirit. Nothing else is accomplished without first there is FAITH!
     
  19. Yelsew

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    Where in Luke 13 did Jesus say anything about believing?? Did you just add that in because you thought he should have said something about it??

    To say that this was “not a lesson in salvation” just won’t work. The issue was “sin” (cf. v. 2) not Roman domination.</font>[/QUOTE]You do have to agree that Pilate was a Roman agent do you not? Jesus, in a teaching mode, put the road sign up, it is up to the listener to believe and heed the warning is it not?
    Yes, Jesus is addressing sin, but what sin? the sin of disobedience to Authority! All sin works the same way, but if you do not believe the truth of the warning, you will perish just the same as those who did perish.

    Jesus was speaking to a crowd of others who were likewise dominated over by Rome! He is telling them that it is sin to behave the way that the Galileans had, and if his listeners did not repent from behaving in that way that they too would have the same fate. In 4 and 5 he is reminding them of the 18 working on the tower when they fell and died. They died regardless of their personal persuasion. Were they all guilty of sin that caused their death? NO, but they all died! The real sinner may have been the designer of the structure, or the one who made a particular brick or cut a particular stone, or cut a particular tree that was used for scaffolding. Perhaps none of the 18 were guilty of the sin (condition) that caused their death, but they died none the less. Where's the fairness in that? Luke 12:54-59 immediately precedes, "it was about this time..." of Luke 13:1
    Larry, you have got to admit that Jesus is in the persuading mode, teaching the people 1st grade principles of life, so that they will believe. It remains Belief (FAITH alone) that saves. Once belief exists, then repentance, confession, and forgiveness become the norm for the believer.
    You are ignoring the principles, overlooking the Atonement. Repentance is not necessary for Salvation, Atonement is! Repentance comes to Believers who are saved, because it is while God's grace prevails that they heard the Word of God and believed. Then the Holy Spirit convicts of sin for which repentance (remorse, contrition), sets in, then confession is made and forgiveness results. ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE will not "feel" a need for repentance, and will therefore not confess his sins and receive forgiveness thereof. One who does not believe will never enter the confessional booth to receive absolution for sins.

    The Areopagite's response? Laughter, and in essence, "Someday we will hear more of your story".


    Did Jesus say, "if you believe in the atonement (an act that I do for you) you shall be saved".

    I don't think so! And your statement makes it clear that:
    You do not believe that the atonement is payment of the penalty that sin demands, but rather that atonement is salvation.
    You do not believe that Confession of sin is what brings Forgiveness for sins, but repentance does.
    You do not believe that FAITH is what brings one Salvation?

    You do not believe them because you want SALVATION to be FAITH PLUS SOMETHING YOU CAN DO. You, all by yourself can repent! You don't need faith in God to repent. Try walking through a wall and you will see clearly that you need to find another way to exit the room. That change is an act of repentance, you feel sad that you didn't succeed in passing through the wall, and anyone can, and in fact we all do change every day, just not in a spiritual way. When we encounter obstacles to our path, we either sit and pout or we change to get past the obstacle. So it is an effort that we expend, a work, that you are requiring for salvation and that is legalism, that is contrary to the Salvation that scriptures teach.

    WHO REPENTS, Believer or Unbeliever? Which then comes first Belief or repentance?


    WOW! Is that a confession I see? "We repent because we believe" Glory Hallelujah! Then would you also confess that NOTHING takes place in man until man believes? Neither salvation, nor sanctification, nor repentance, nor confession of sins? I did not include Justification, because that was done by Jesus outside of man but for mans benefit!
     
  20. Yelsew

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    Well Me2, let's see If I have this right.

    1. Man has absolutely no possibility of hearing God's Holy Word until AFTER man is regenerated BY REPLACEMENT of human spirit with divine spirit. Is that right?

    2. That means that only AFTER God alters man can man hear God! Right?

    3. That means that man will NEVER LOOK FOR, OR SEEK AFTER GOD until God replaces mans spirit with the spirit of Christ. Right?

    4. That means that God didn't really mean it when he said "I have placed before you Life and Death, CHOOSE Life"? Right?

    5. If man has no possibility of hearing and responding to God, then there is no JUST reason for God to punish man. Did you take the part about God being the Judge our of your bible? Scriptures definitely say that God is going to judge every man according to his deeds, Revelation 20:14,15. By what standard is man to be judged? By some bogus standard that God saves his elect and no others? Or, by a standard that man has absolutely no possible way of knowing? Or, by a Standard that man is not privvy to?


    You can believe that hocus pocus if you want, but please don't be disappointed if no one else believes it. It is hogwash!
     

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