Are some Churches getting out of hand?

Then you would be wrong. SoS has nothing to do with Christ's relationship with the church.

Really? You mean you didn't really say that Song of Solomon is referring to Christ's relationship with the church?

 

Wow, sure is easy to throw rocks at other Christians and churches for doing something different. How are you (all the dectractors) reaching out to your community to connect lost people to Jesus?

Certainly we (the Church) need to refrain from indecency, but to impose some Victorian paradigm of sexual isolation is not awfully realistic. The Bible is not a Victorian book. It's messy and very explicit in many areas. We live in a very messy and explicit culture. What this, and many other churches, are doing to reach people is their business and not ours to critique. Notice that they are presenting Jesus and the Cross as the redeemer of our sexuality. That is the central message.

Often I wonder that if Christians are the only ones keeping score on an aspect of the game if that aspect really matters.

Listen, we've reached who we're going to reach. In many of our churches regeneration and salvation is purely a generational, ancestoral link and they aren't seeing life change happen from outsiders. Its a purely insider thing. Christianity and the Gospel isn't about reaching insiders. Current research puts 40% of Americans as Christians (you and I would call it "born again".) To reach the other 60% it probably is going to look more like Jesus' ministry rough, raw, and realistic than the pristine, aristocratic Victorianism of last century.

 

None the less the point is that if someone choses to advertise using a topic that I think is unwise at best. Who am I to be his Judge. Gods Word says that all judgement is given to the Son not me.

I do believe that most Churches are giong "to far" and that is why I don't attend a "Church" like that. I don't think that anything goes is a very wise philosophy and we would do well to keep our eye on the little foxes, (in our own lives and our own Church). In fact doesn't the Bible address busy bodies and removing my beam before I try to remove your mote. Is it less sinful to stand in judgement than it is to use unwise methodology.

I am forced to consider the scripture when it says that the world will know us because of the love that we have for one another.

On a side note I have never met (not that they arent out there) anyone who is reaching others for Christ and has time to bash those who don't dot all of their I's and cross all of their T's just so. Lord let us err on the side of Grace.

 

...just as you're throwing rocks at us now.

We're preaching the Gospel to them. How does having a "Seven Day Sex Challenge" "reaching out to the lost"? Lost people don't need to be "connected" to Jesus, they need to be convicted of their sins by the preaching of the Gospel and repent and be born again.

Then why are they bringing it up on message boards?

Actually, they're not. Where does the Bible say that our "sexuality" needs to be redeemed?

That's really sad that your church is like that. Our church has gone from 24 people in 2006 to just over 300 on our third anniversiary this year. At least 1/3 of those are new Christians.

Actually, preaching and teaching the word of God in the contex of the corporate gathering of believers is for the edification of the church, not for "reaching outsiders".

You take your doctrine from polls. We take ours from the word of God.

 

You mean I can't compare scripture with scripture? You mean I can't rightly divide the word of truth? Thats to bad because I could have sworn that both of the passages were talking about both marriage and the Church (ie. my relationship with Christ).

Wow!
Really??
Wow!

Man you really filled my mouth with words.

You don't suppose that I was trying to illustrate that because of the sexual connatation that he couldn't have been specificly addressing the "communion" that he has with the believer and therefore must have been addressing the sexual relationship between a man and his wife which is the most intimate relationship that two humans can have, and was there by illustrating that he wishes to have an intimate relationship with his creation that allows the two to become one in the consumation of faith?

Give me a break man!

If you dont allow me a little Grace then I'll never be able to learn all of those big words that you use in the Pulpit.raying:

 

You're repeating yourself. I already answered both of these in post #61.

 

It’s part of our sanctification.

1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

I’m not putting a stamp of approval on the O/P. I couldn’t go to the site (Error 404) to read the whole article anyway.

However there were some issues about marriage and human reproduction that begged addressing.

The question above is one of them. God expects us to be “pure” (regardless of the past) and to cooperate with that purification process called sanctification.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Granted for some of us it is more difficult than others as we pass through this world as pilgrims.

HankD

 

Hank, even if that were true, sanctification and justification are not the same thing.

 

Many of us interpret Scripture literally. We believe the Genesis account of creation, for example is historical, the days are 24 hour days, and simply put that what God wrote, God meant.

We believe that most of the Bible is written for that purpose--to be taken literally unless it specifically indicates in the passage otherwise.
One of the early Church Fathers, Origen, began to popularize another method of interpretation that was unknown before his time. That was allegorization. He would take a passage such as SOS, and make it mean Christ and his love for the Church, rather than simply a man's love for a woman, as it literally portrays. This allegorical method was greatly popularized by Augustine later on.
Origen was a heretic; Augustine a Catholic.
The Allegoric method of interpretation has had many pit-falls leading to many to errant doctrines, doctrines which could never be found in the Bible except it be for making one thing in the Bible mean something that it should not mean.

 

I agree (er, mostly). If one is going to claim that SoS is referring to Christ's relationship to the church, there are some pretty ticklish (no pun intended) passages they'd be hard pressed to explain.

 

Well, I will say one thing, your posts are consistent. What is a nice way to put it in modern terms? Oh, I know, Biblically challenged.

 

Outrageous, it reminds me of the clown communion thread some time back. This has no place with any worship of God. Sex is a private matter between a married man and woman, and really no one else's business, and it has no place being put up for public discussion, especially in a house of worship.

 

OK. What did I say that is not Biblically correct?

 

The very fact that you think "we win or you win" people to a relationship with Jesus tells me you do not have a clue as to what you are talking about. God does the drawing, or winning, as you put it. Another thing I have learned here is those with a very few number of posts who are already into it what several members based on mindless posts, also do not have a clue.

 

Acts 14:21 - They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch,

1 Peter 3:1 - Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives

Proverbs 11:30 - ... he that winneth souls is wise.

Daniel 12:3, - “And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

In Mark 1:17-18, Jesus said, "Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.”

Who catches fish if not fishermen?

 

Totally out of context. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If the Lord had not been working on all those people in the above verses when they heard the Word, the speaker might as well have been talking to a brick wall. God uses us to tell the Good News, but it is His power in the individual that does the drawing. Remember a statement in the Bible saying I chose you, you did not choose Me.

You have no power to win anyone. You are merely an insturment to do what God has ordained. Get a clue then start posting again.

 

OK JDF, but the word "redeemed" (a form of the word "redemption") that you used includes every aspect of our salvation IMO.

Sanctification is the normal expected outcome of the new birth and a very important part of our redemption.

It is a normal expectation for those who have been justified to leave their old sinful life behind.

1 Corinthians 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

And to "depart from iniquity" and "flee youthful lusts".​

2 Timothy 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.​

It is expected that we will put off the "old man" and his lusts and seek the holiness of the "new man". ​

Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.​

As with justification, we can't do this on our own. Only through the power of God and the Spirit of Christ we can cooperate in this part of our redemption.​

Many in this world are enslaved to this kind of sin and they need to be freed through the grace of God.​

I'm not convinced that the allurement method used by this pastor is 100% kosher, but hopefully he used the opportunity to invite sinners to receive the grace of God.​

HankD​

 

OK. Please show me the proper context of these verses.

And hearing the word of God requires someone to proclaim that word, does it not?

Romans 10:14 - How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I agree. It is essential that God prepare hearts for preaching, but the Bible still commands us to win souls.

Then why does God say that he that winneth souls is wise? Why does the Bible tell us that soulwinners will recieve crowns?

You know, it's a shame your parents didn't teach you any manners. You might be a very pleasant person to talk to, if only they had.

 

I'm sorry, but I do not see anything in scripture to suggest that Jesus died to redeem our sexuality.

Not according to "Pastor" Larry.