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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aaron, Oct 19, 2012.
Some folks seem to think so.
They may share some similarities such as believers-only baptism, and congregational church government; but they also have denominational control of some of their churches. Their systemic belief in divine revelation, outside of the Word of God, stands in sharp contrast to Baptists recognizing the Bible as the only source of authority for all matters of faith and practice. Similarities aside, I do not believe they are Baptists.
I agree! I agree!
Their church government follows the Presbyterian model rather than biblical congregationalism.
And there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the 'Full Gospel Baptist' position:
'Full Gospel Baptists' are indeed Pentecostal/Charismatic, and of the Word Church (Hagin, etc.) strain.
Straight from the Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship policy manual:
said they seemed to LIKE Free will baptist /full gospel baptist churches, in their views of the bible, trinity, salvation etc!
And they have a headquarters in Springfield, but each local assembly runs its own way!
From the AOG website:
Let me rephrase the question: Are the autonomous AG's Baptist churches?
Aaron, anyone can start a church and call it a Baptist church. But what have Baptists historically believed? Yes, there are Full Gospel Baptist Churches, but I do not think they represent what Baptists have historically believed. Whenever a church teaches that divine revelation is actively occurring today, that church is denying the sufficiency of Scripture, a key Baptist belief. There is a reason why AoG churches do not call themselves Baptists.
C'mon now this is an easy one.
Are the Assembly of God churches Baptst?
The answer is an obvious, NO.
If they were then they would call themselves Baptist. and not AOG.
Too many doctrinal differences to be Baptist.
key phrase is that i said they "seemed" as being close to Baptist by their practices/teachings, least close to the arminian /free will wing of the baptists!
And "Full Gospel " baptist churches would essentially be same as them!
My point was simply that this group does not hold to the Pentecostal definition of the baptism of the HS and initial evidence of tongues. And that is true. This can be confirmed by reading their confession/statement of faith.
"Within the fellowship of the Assemblies of God there are two classifications of churches - General Council affiliated churches and district affiliated churches. General Council affiliated churches enjoy full autonomy, having developed to the point of where they are self-governing and self-supporting. These fundamental principles have been catalysts for growth in the Fellowship. District affiliated churches are those which have not yet developed to the point where they qualify for full autonomy. All assemblies are required to adhere to the Statement of Fundamental Truths and a biblical pattern of conduct."
The AOG churches are generally congregational as far as their property is concerned. However, they can only have pastors that hold credentials with the AOG District organization. This gives the AOG organization some control over the churches. Also, most AOG churches have in their constitution that the property goes to the AOG if the church ceases to exist.
That is not true.
On page 15 it gives a Baptist statement of faith, and on pages 16 and 17 it gives the Full Gospel Distinctives followed by a Denominational Affiliation Statement. The Distinctives (similar to another statement of faith), tell of the difference between the baptism of the Spirit and the filling of the Spirit, a subsequent experience which includes the seeking for and practice of the gifts of the Spirit. Although not delineated this would include those gifts which are mentioned in 1Cor.12 which include tongues and healing, gifts which most Baptists consider have ceased.
IMO, you are one or the other. You can't be both. You are either Charismatic or Baptist. As Amos said: "How can two walk together except they be agreed?" Baptists and Charismatics are not agreed on many things.
Furthermore their type of Church Government is not really congregational at all. It is hierarchical in nature, many of the offices not found in the Bible, and redundant in nature.
It is indeed true. They do not believe that the baptism of the HS is a second work of grace after conversion/regeneration with initial evidence of tongues. That is the Pentecostal view; it is not the view of this group.
Their church government is autonomous and congregational; as they say, they view the episcopate as a "covering".
This group is Baptist and non-cessationist with regard to all the gifts mentioned in the Bible. That is what they mean by the term "full gospel". I personally don't like the term, but I understand why some use it to describe their view about the spiritual gifts.
What about the following can you not comprehend?
VIII. We believe in Jesus Christ as the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit, who brings men and women at salvation into relationship with Himself and His Body, the Church. We further believe that it is the baptism of the Holy Ghost that places one into the Body of Christ. All Believers have been baptized by Christ with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:11; John 1:33; I Corinthians 12:13).
IX. We believe in the indwelling of the Holy Ghost for all Believers and that the Holy Ghost verifies and validates the Believer as part of the Body of Christ (Romans 8:9).
X. We believe in the spirit-filled life as desirable, valuable, and an issue of obedience for all Believers who are commanded to be filled with the Holy Ghost. We acknowledge that within the Body of Christ, the term, “filled with the Holy Ghost” is often used interchangeably with the term, “baptism of the Holy Ghost.” When referring to the controlling presence and power of the Holy Ghost, as a result of the submissive will and desire of the Believer, we allow such alternation of terms. We believe it is the will and command of God that every Believer be “filled,” “walk in,” be “led by,” and “live in” the power of the Holy Ghost (Ephesians 5:18; Galatians 5:16, 18, 25).
XI. We believe that it is God’s desire that all Believers live under the “Divine Direction” of the Holy Ghost. We believe that the filling of the Holy Ghost is an ongoing ministry of the Spirit in the life of the Believer, that enables the Believer to live a life of power, victory, and glory to God (Acts 1:8, 2:4, 4:8, 4:31).
XII. We believe the Holy Ghost fills or empowers Believers for service in the Kingdom of God. Being filled with the Holy Ghost is the result of continuing submission to Divine power and control (Acts 1:8; Ephesians 5:18).
XIII. We believe all Believers are baptized with the Holy Ghost and all Believers should be filled with the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 5:18).
And in their Compendium on Distinctives VIII and X they state: "B) The baptism of the Holy Ghost occurs once and for all at salvation."
I was saved in April of 1979 in Harrison, New Jersey. The place? The Harrison Christian Center, an Assembly of God church. Right after my profession of faith the church held a service that featured a female preacher who was baptizing people with the Holy Spirit. It was very much a "second blessing" scenario. People went up to "receive the Holy Ghost" evidenced by speaking with tongues. I bought into my new church with a fervor. I hung around AoG circles for the first few years of my Christian life. I can tell you now that what I saw was a blurring of the lines between Charismatic and Pentecostal. While the two may be technically different, in real life they one in the same.
I left the AoG in 1983 and began attending a conservative Baptist church in northern New Jersey. The differences were startling. There was a reliance upon the Bible as the Word of God. The Holy Spirit was recognized in His right role as a helper. There was order in worship, not a cacophony of unintelligible utterances. The canon of scripture was properly taught as being closed without adding to it by continued divine revelation. I cannot speak to the Full Gospel Baptist churches except to say that they are minority. I do not believe they represent the shared beliefs of most Baptists.
No. not at all.
[FONT="]Does that sound Baptist to you? Not to me it doesn't. The gifts, of course, are presumably those mentioned in 1Cor.12.[/FONT]
And I don't believe there is a shred of Biblical, historical, or present day evidence that this is true.
Show me a faith healer today who can heal as Peter did in Acts 5:16?
There aren't any, and haven't been any since the first century.
That in and of itself should put the matter to rest.
Just ask them if they like fried chicken and cornbread. If so, they are sho' nuff' Baptists where I come from.
I think I hear what you are saying but I disagree with how you have said it. Surely every Christian in the world believes that divine revelation continues today. I would hope we all seek and have at times felt the promptings of the Lord when we make life decisions and when we go about Kingdom work. Certainly God still speaks to His people through the ministry of the Spirit! In that sense, divine revelation continues. I would agree with you that the canon is closed and that any purported divine revelation we experience a) cannot contradict the witness of Scripture and b) inherently does not carry the same authority as Scripture. This does not mean, however, that divine revelation does not continue. I would be shocked to find myself in the minority on this matter.
I suspect most AoG folks would actually agree with the position stated above. Does anyone know of any charismatic or pentecostal leader or group that states contemporary divine revelation can override biblical principles?
I probably should have been more precise in my wording. God is not speaking to Christians today the way that he spoke to the Apostles. Heavenly visions and special words of knowledge have ceased. The Holy Spirit continues to minister to God's people by giving us understanding of the Word, comfort in times of pain, and strength in times weakness. But this is not the same as new revelation from God. The problem with "God told me" is that it cannot be refuted unless we are willing to call the person a liar.