Are the Fake Christians know they themselves are Fake?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, May 16, 2006.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    Do the fake Christians know that they themselves are fake?

    Do many Churchmen and Churchwomen who have never been born again truly in Christ realize they themselves are not the true believers?

    How can the Born-again believers help them realize about themselves and help them to be converted truly?

    Were these people believers?

    John 8:31

    Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him ,

    Why did they try to kill Jesus if they believed on Him?

    John 8:59
    Then took they(Jews) up stones to cast at him(Jesus): but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Matt 7 and 1 John tell us that we may know we are saved - but they do not say that the lost may NOT know they are lost. In fact in the MAtt 7 scenario we see they are "self deceived" into thinking they ARE saved.
     
  3. SpiritualMadMan

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    The question then comes up as to exactly what they were believing concerning Jesus...

    John doesn't say they were believing on Him for Salvation...

    Obviously, what they believed was inadequate to the task as they quickly threw it out when it contradicted what their preconcieved notions were...

    Their own Spiritual Pre-eminence in God's Plan...

    As to how to help a not-quite saved person...

    It is difficult... Very difficult...

    The biggest thing is to confront them with what they say they actually believe then contrast it to what Scripture say...

    Is thier Salvation based on their own works?

    Do they claim Jesus as Fire Insurance without Making/Allowing Him to be Lord?

    This will make an interesting thread to watch. :D

    SMM
     
  4. Eliyahu

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    Gal 2:4 says:
    And that because of False Brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus,...

    This sounds like that the false are coming into the church as like a military operation.

    Many fake Christians believe that they are true believers or born-again Christians because they don't find themselves as fake, which is quite pity.
     
  5. Eliyahu

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    1 John 2:19

    They went out from us, but they were not of us.

    Did they know about themselves?


    I think 2 Cor 13:5 relates to this as well.
     
  6. Claudia_T

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    Thats funny, I was just wondering the same thing, if they actually know better.


    Im thinking that probably people gradually grieve away the Holy Spirit when God tries to show them things out of the Scriptures... till finally they are willing to accept the direct opposite of what God says. Once you believe one error it prepares the way for the next and the next also.

    The Bible says SOME are "blind" and cannot see, believing that everything is just fine.. when in reality they are in deep spiritual trouble.


    Revelation 3:
    15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
     
  7. Claudia_T

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    I have often wondered if someone actually writes a special book with all the Bible verses that have to do with obedience and the commandments... and then, verse by verse they sit there and think up half-way plausible-sounding excuses as to why we dont have to actually do what God says.
     
  8. Chemnitz

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    I think most have deluded themselves in their "good" works and activity. Or they just don't care, they are there because that is where their friends and family are at.
     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

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    In this case, and in many cases I believe that the False Brethren knew that they were fakes...

    This is because, in these cases, the behavior noticably contradicted the established norm...

    They *had* to know they were doing things 'against the grain'...

    SMM
     
  10. mman

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    Matt 7:21-23 Obviously sincere folks arguing with Jesus on the day of judgment. They believed in Jesus, worked for Jesus, and called Him Lord, but they were lost. Why? They weren't doing the will of God. Was this just a few or many? Jesus said it was MANY. From this section of scripture alone, one can see that many lost folks are deceived into thinking they are saved.

    I Tim 4:1-5 - Some will depart from the faith and give heed to doctrines of demons. What are these terrible doctrines? That Jesus is not the son of God? No, they were commanding people to abstain from certain types of meat and forbidding certain people from getting married. This passage talks about people being deceived.

    Gal 1:6-9 - Anyone who preaches another gospel is to be accursed. How had they changed the gospel? They still believed Jesus was the son of God, that part hadn't changed. They were teaching that an Old Testament commandment (circumcision)was still binding under the New Covenant. Why would anyone knowingly preach something that would lead to their own condemnation?

    II Tim 3:13 - people are deceiving and being deceived. Does anyone know when they are truly decieved? If they did, they wouldn't be deceived.

    II Thess 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    How can this happen? They don't have a love for the truth.

    True worship of God is in truth. That is a MUST! (John 4:23-24)

    God's word is truth (Jn 17:17).

    Man can worship God in vain (Mark 7:6-8, Matt 15:7-9)

    Some men worship God according to their own will (Col 2:23).

    Some people seek out what they want to hear because it is pleasing to their ears (II Tim 4:3-4).

    I think the scriptures are clear that many people will be deceived into thinking they are saved, when they are actually lost. Satan wouldn't want it any other way.
     
  11. Eliyahu

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    Actually when I raised this issue I wanted to point out that the people who are deceived are the victims of the Devil as they may not recognized that they themselves are cheated.
    However, in reality we are so hasty as to blame the people directly, without looking at the Satan behind. This understanding demands us to be patient, to show lovingkindness, and the maturity of the faith. This is quite sad situation which will continue until Lord comes.

    Another issue is whether the True believers can discern whether the churchmen, churchwomen are true believers or fake believers or not, and what is the best way for the believers to discern the other party. This may have to be discussed so that we may learn how to discern and help the nominal churchpeople to realize the truth, without hurting them.

    Paul indicated some women's names are recorded in the book of life (Phil 4:3) There are several more spots which indicate the believers recognize the salvation.

    Are we safely indemnified if we overlook the people who are the church-go-ers but not saved ? Or how much do we have to try to admonish them to review the matter of their salvation?
    How can we cope with the activity of the devil?

    I think the people who seriously realize themselves unsaved may not go to the Hell, because they will pursue the salvation desperately.

    The Goats in the story of Matt 25:31-46 are the typical example of these people as spiritual victims, I belive.
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    Eliyahu,


    In my opinion, if you review the story Jesus told about the Good Samaritan, you will see that there are times when people who may have the correct doctrine are really the deceived ones while those who do not, arent deceived.

    What I mean is this, Someone came asking Jesus what he had to do to have eternal life, Jesus said keep the commandments... love your neighbor. Then the question was asked who is my neighbor.

    Then Jesus gives this portrayal of a wounded man lying on the side of the road... the leaders with the correct doctrine se the wounded man and pass on by on the other side.

    But the Good Samaritan who didnt have correct doctrine, followed the dictates of the Holy Spirit and he stopped to help the poor man.

    Jesus said who was the one helping his neighbor and keeping the commandments?

    The answer was the man who didnt have the correct doctrine.


    Can you see why Jesus told that story of the sheep and the goats? Who was saved? The people with the correct doctrine? NO


    It was the ones who helped their neighbor and who had love in their hearts.

    Therefore we ought to be careful in assuming that certain people are deceived and going to be lost... People may be following all the light that they have --better than those who have great light and are not living up to it. Sometimes they can be more devoted to God than those who have correct doctrine. Ignorantly serving God the best they know how.

    see what I mean??

    Claudia
     
  13. billwald

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    What about fake born again believers? What is the objective test for being born again?
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Interesting question.
    I didn't know that one can fake Christianity.
    I mean, to be a Christian is to belong to Christ, that is, to be born again is to be known in heaven by name because one is a citizen there.
    Christian behavior can be faked, even Christian talk and sounds, but one's status in Christ cannot.
    The Lord knows who are His.
     
  15. JFox1

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    Some people can fake Christianity. The BTK serial killer went to a Lutheran (ELCA) church in Kansas and even became president of his church's council. The church members were shocked to learn he was the BTK killer. He stood in the courtroom and coldly described how he tortured and killed each of his victims. He then told the courtroom, "Some of you think I'm not a Christian, but I think I'm a Christian" or words to that effect.
     
  16. Eliyahu

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    JFox1, Claudia, PinoyBap, Billwald,

    Thanks for your comments.

    Actually my question was equally directed to both the True Believers and the Fake Believers who may be unknowingly misunderstanding about the salvation. Actually we all human beings became so fragile since the sin entered into this world.

    Very interesting comment by JFox about the killer.
    Actually I have a friend in Singapore who was a gangster but became a born-again believer now. He even killed one of his enemy, in his term he executed the justice to the enemy. He told me he never thought he was a sinner, but was very much righteous, all the time.

    I think there should be a clear cut or clear difference between 2 times, before Being Born Again and After Being Born-Again. Being Born-Again means the starting point of a new life.

    We are not judged by behaviors as Paul clarified in Galatian 3:1-5, while we must live the life of Christ which means the holy life.

    We are saved by faith, believing what was done by Jesus. Then, after the salvation, are we sanctified by the works? Paul says No in that chapter (Gal 3).
    Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    But when we have the question like the one by Claudia, I would like to remind you the followings:

    Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    If the behavior of certain people was that of Goats, then the person is a goat, and cannot be a sheep.

    The whole world is going to the wrong direction, and it becomes more and more difficult to discern the people as everybody says I am born again. I notice this problem among the famous politicians. I have no intention to hijack this thread to another purpose, after I post the OP, and therefore please be patient when I mention one case. Some years ago, maybe almost 10 years ago, when George Bush was the governor of Texas, one lady was in a death row after she killed someone ( I cannot remember exactly but guess she killed her husband), then accepted the Lord and was clearly born again, and she confessed she wouldn't mind about the death as she was going to the heaven, and showed much testimony about the change of her mind, then many Christians submitted the petition to the governor, but it was rejected by G Bush, and she was executed.
    At that time G Bush claimed that he was a born-again Christian as well.
    In the whole process I had a question whether G Bush knew the real meaning of Being Born-Again and understand what kind of change she has made in her life, etc. In the modern society, wasn't such authority of pardoning and remission given to the governor so that it could be used on such occasion? Of course the law is the law. But I was sad to hear about it. Who would go to the heaven clearly between 2, the sinner and the governor? Both of them? could be, or could not be.
     
  17. Eliyahu

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    I would like to comment on the Good Samaritan in my own view.

    The man was going from Jerusalem down to Jericoh, which was like turning away from God toward the Hell, via sin city like Las Vegas.
    He was caught by thieves (robber). Likewise we human beings are caught by the sins of this world, and wounded everywhere in our lives, and half dead on the way.
    Priests representing Mosaic Law were useless for such wretched person, Levite was just a hypocrite.
    Samaritan showed the compassion and healed his wounds, poured oil and wine, which reminds us of Jesus Christ who shed the blood and poured us the Holy Spirit, then assigned us to the Inn which may mean the church and gave 2 denarion. I don't know what these exactly mean, maybe faith and hope or Lord Supper and Baptism, anything useful for the believers life.
    The Samaritan assured that he will come again and will repay whatever the wretched man owes.
    Lord Jesus will come again and will pay anything which we owe or will want.
    So, I understand the first commandment was to Love our God wholeheartedly, and the second commandment was to love our neighbor as our body, and we find Jesus was talking about Himself as our True Neighbor.

    Even in this case, good behavior, good works comes from the faith, from Jesus Christ and Jesus was the true Samaritan.
     
  18. billwald

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    "Actually my question was equally directed to both the True Believers and the Fake Believers who may be unknowingly misunderstanding about the salvation."

    Salvation by gnosis?
     
  19. Eliyahu

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  20. DeafPosttrib

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    This is a GOOD question to ask. Everyone ought to know.

    In 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE for IF ye DO these things, ye shall never fall."

    It tells us that, we are responsible to make our calling and election SURE(in other word - assurance) for IF we DO these things, we shall never fall.

    If suppose, we know Christ(in our minds, not hearts), but not do these things, and we fall, then our salvation might be doubt. Also, what IF we do not do these things, then we are not God's elect at the end according Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13.

    This question is refer with Matt. 7:21-23. Christ saying to us, in that day(Judgment Day), many shall saying to Christ that, they do truly doing works serve for Him. They do know Christ(in their minds, not hearts). Then, Christ shall tell to them, 'Depart from me...' Why? Because they have iniquity. Iniquity means wicked or sin. They doing good works for the Lord, but no repent of sins. Same with Pharisees saying that they do their good works for their Lord. But their heart is far away from Christ, because of without repentance.

    Also, we can test people's fruit(Matt. 7:16-20) & (1 John 4:1-3), by their spiritual actions, see if they truly love the Lord with their hearts. Not easy for us to identify them, see if they are truly saved or not. Only God judge them. But, we have to be careful with them, because 1 John 2:19 warns us, that we must watch them out. There are too many hyrocrites out there everywhere.

    We all are hyprocite in face of them. We have to be careful with our testimony, and we must carry our fruits (John 15:1-10) before God and people.

    Our responsible that we must make our calling and election TO BE SURE, IF WE DO these things, so, we shall never fall.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     

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