Are the five points Biblical or man made?

I dont think Scripture teaches that God condemns anyone who hasnt violated the Law. Rather, God predestines vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath will be left under the judgment of the Law while vessels of Grace will recieve unmerrited mercy under the redemption of Christ.

So what you mean is that God looked into the future and saw Esau's rejection and based on that God predestined Him to not recieve the birthright? If not please explain and then explain it in comparison to verse 16.

Well considering God hardened Pharaoh's heart by his own pleasure and not Pharaoh's will then we have a problem. Again The 2 Peter verse must be speaking of the elect. Now I do think God has a longing for the lost, even those who arent called to salvation. So lets put it this way- God longs for sinners, but nobody comes and all have gone astray, so out of grace he calls a few elect, not by their will, but by His to recieve endless blessing. No one deserves forgiveness, and nobody seeks God in Love. Nobody has an excuse, all have rejected at some point and if God doesnt make salvation available then that is perfectly fair. For someone to say the Holy Son of God deserves to take my wrath and give me grace is obsurd. We should be begging for punishment when we see His glory. Anyone would die for their kid, but when it comes to Jesus they are very quick to let Him die in their place. Now Yes on the other hand Salvation is available to everyone from our perspective.

effectual calling-

Mathew 13:44 "The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field that a man found and covered up, then in his joy, he sold all he had and bought that field"

When one's eyes are opened to God, how can he/she resist? It would be more insane than finding a priceless treasure in a cheap field and not buying the field. If a rich man came up to me and said heres a million dollars and its yours for free; the only way I'd reject is if I didnt understand what it was.

I havent read anything on Calvin yet either, but I understand He was an outstanding bible teacher and even those who opposed His theology such as Arminias respected Him greatly so Id choose my wording carefully if you dont know him or his story.

So what would you do if the bible said that God doesnt long for people to perish and at the same time He sovereingly predestines people based on His will and not their will? This means that God chooses their destiny without them ever doing a thing- He is the molder who molds the clay and the clay has no say in how it is molded (when speaking fo God's decrees)

 

God has every right to do as he please as long as it is within the context of what he said he would do,

There is an area outside the context of God's word which God will not transgress.

All flesh is appointed to die, so was it a physical or spiritual (soul) death that reigned from Adam to Moses??

Enoch/Noah walked with God, how did they "KNOW" how to be rightous with God before the law,

and if they could, why couldn't everyone else of their era???

God has made himself known to man from the beginning, it's not that God was/is hid from man, but that man must reject what he knows about God,

God doesn't reject man, Man rejects God.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Enoch/Noah didn't have the law, but in their hearts, they "KNEW GOOD/EVIL", and what was the reason for Noahs flood??

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Read this verse then I want to ask you a question.

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

If you are a doer of the law, that is keep the law, will it save you???

The answer is "NO", it won't.

but its meaning could easily be misinterpreted to mean yes,

We refer to "outlaws" as being "LAW-LESS" people, so who are the people without the law, the ones who ignore the law, even if it's written on their hearts.

Flesh and blood can't inherit heaven, the "spiritual condition" of the soul, saved/lost doesn't make any difference to the condemnation of flesh, all flesh is condemned.

 

Although I probably disagree with Me4Him about a number of things, I think you are missing his point about vessels of wrath and mercy not being static categories. In fact, the allusion in Romans 9 is to Jeremiah, where God warns Israel that he will fashion it into a vessel for destruction if it continues upon the same path.

Paul's opposition is not concerned about the Western individualism that so many people bring to the text. Rather, he is concerned that God's promise to Israel/Abraham's children has failed. Paul counters that the true children of Abraham are not "according to the flesh," but are those to believe in Christ. Israel, therefore, is cast in the role of Esau and Pharaoh.

Here's something I once posted in another forum that covers more ground (A couple of the Scripture references are messed up, but I don't have time to fix them at this time):

In the Second Temple period, saying "elect," or "child of Abraham" were to say that same thing. Paul's opposition is defending their identity as God's chosen people.

Paul's purpose is to attack the Jewish belief in their exclusive right-standing before God based upon their physical descent from Abraham. He has to show that although Israel is physically descended from Abraham, that physical descent was itself based upon a "promise" made. If God fulfills his word through promises, we need to ask what promise stands behind the issue at hand. We'll discover that Romans begins (1:1-3) and ends (16:25-27) by telling us exactly what that promise was. Read carefully, the verses in question are shown to dismantle the Jewish mind-set involving the belief that they are God’s people based upon bloodline and that the “works of the law” mark them out as such.

We have to back up a bit and understand that Paul has already established that Abraham is the forefather of the Gentile Christains, too, and this has to be defended. If the Gentiles are included as Abraham's children through faith, the objecting Jew would have to conclude that God's word had failed, since from their perspective God's promise was to the Jews - the natural decedents of Abraham.

First, we must observe how Paul argues that those of faith are Abraham's "children of the promise." What is the identity of “the children of the promise”?

Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."...It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith....Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all


Likewise…

Romans 4
Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.


The point to take note of here is that it is twice repeated that the promise was received through faith - not that faith was received through the promise. Those who trust God become Abraham's children, and like him they become righteous. The promise ----> comes by faith. The promise is the ground of election, on which faith stands.

In case some doubt remains, we see the same idea in Galatians:

Galatians
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. ...You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


Here, again, those who trust Christ are heirs to the promise: heaven. The promise was made only to one Person. Those "clothed" in that Person, the "Seed," become "seeds" in his likeness. He was the only one to whom the promise was made.

Returning to Romans 9, since Paul has already argued the idea that Gentiles are Abraham's children through faith, he needs to dismantle other Jewish constructs concerning their status as God’s people. He does so with the example of Rebekah's two children.

But before look at that, we must understand that the nation which resulted from God's selection via Abraham --> Isaac --> Jacob was the result of promises, but was not saved apart from faith. Apart from faith, what advantage is there to being a Jew?

Romans 9:4-5
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God ... Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!


The Jews are the bearers of all those things that led up to Christ. Having established that the Jews have been entrusted with the very things that bear witness to Christ -who is their true hope salvation- Paul’s basis for faith-based salvation has come full circle. The Jews themselves are heirs to all that is mentioned above, but not apart from faith.

Paul doesn't stop there, however. He puts the final nail in the coffin by proving that the promise made to Abraham (the promise that he would be the father of many nations and inherit the world) was fulfilled through Israel’s patriarchs via a promise, so that no one could claim that it was fulfilled through fleshly descent from Abraham.

Romans 9:8-9
In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

What was the promise? “…Sarah will have a son.”

Again,What was the promise? “…Sarah will have a son.” That is how it was stated, before the child was even born. He was the son through whom Israel would come. A promise!

Israel's own identity comes via a promise, so why do they object that God's promise to Abraham is fulfilled by including Gentiles who believe via a promise? This son that was born to Rebekah, after all, was due to a promise, so the identity of Israel itself is based upon a promise. Isaac and Jacob were not even in existence when the promise was made, so it could not be argued that they “had it coming” due to their bloodline? In fact, they had not even assumed Jewish cultic practice (“done anything good or bad” - i.e., “the works of the law") which the Jews claimed gave them their identity as God’s people –that which set them apart! In other words, just as Abraham was uncircumcised when he was justified by faith proved his justification was not based upon his Jewishness, the election of Israel to be the bearers of the things of Christ was not based upon their Jewishness, but on a “promise,” that God’s purpose in electing Israel might stand.

Paul knows his Scriptures. He knows his Jewish audience understands that (as someone has already mentioned) the OT verses in question are about "two nations are in your womb." It was through one child that Israel would come, but not the other. Jacob was not saved by tricking his father with an animal skin, nor was that the first day Jacob believed. Rather, it was through him that Israel’s birthright/identity came. Again:

Romans 9:4-5
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God ... Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!


So, if Israel concedes that its identity comes through a promise, how can they object that the Gentiles are included via a promise? If the Jews believe, they too will partake of the fulfillment of all that is mentioned in the verses immediately above and below.

Galatians 3
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.


And, as Romans 11 clearly indicates, the Gentiles who believed the promise (the basis of God's election) are grafted into God’s people. This is why Paul could write to both Gentiles and Jews and call Abraham “our forefather” (4:1). Indeed, the failure of the Jews to believe in the promise (the basis of God’s election according, to His purpose) resulted in them being “broken off” of God’s people. They can be grafted in again, if they will believe in Christ .

God's word has not failed. It is fulfilled via his promises -as always- not fleshly descent. God's word is fulfilled in Christ, as promised to Abraham.

Believe and be grafted in. "You stand by faith."

 

To take BaptistBob one step further,

Jesus was only sent to Israel, and told Israel the reason they would not be accepted by God is because they closed their eyes/ears/hearts to his message and refused to believe, or have faith in him,

Man's "UNBELIEF" is the only thing that stands in the way of the whole world being saved,

As Jesus told Israel, "I would, you wouldn't", man's belief/unbelief is a "CHOICE" left up to the individual, God increases faith, but by no means does he give "SAVING FAITH",

else it would be God's fault for Israel's "Lack of faith" instead of them closing the eyes/ears.

Man rejecting God is a theme the runs through the scriptures from Genesis/Revelation,

You'll never find God rejecting man unless Man gives God a reason to reject him, and the Bible is, from cover to cover, advise on the do's/don't that please/angry God.

Virtually everything I've seen posted supporting Calvin's doctrine centers on the NT, but to understand the NT, the "foundation" on which it is laid must be understood, the OT,

You can't learn Calculus until you learn "simple math", the OT is the "Schoolmaster" teaching "Earthly things" such as the "Sacrifices" which prepares the "MIND" to understand "heavenly things", Jesus's sacrifice.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Beyond the "passover lamb" you don't hear many sermons comparing the OT sacrifices with the NT, and it's an ignorance that leads too most of the confusion.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg

 

Baptist Bob- You say that the promise is recieved through faith, which I agree. we are saved by faith in Christ. Now, what I would say is that the promise flows from the decretive will of God.God wills it, He always follows through perfectly, and delivers it through faith.

If you take Sarah for example. She had nothing to do with having Isaac as far as predestination goes. God already decided to give her a supernatural birth before she was born. God already had everything planned out for Isaac and the 12 princes after him. Abraham didnt believe when God first told him, but God decreed it and delivered His promise.

I would never disagree that we are to trust in Christ to be grafted into the family of God. This doesnt mean our faith alters what Gods will and that God's will is daily changed in order to fit in some stranger who decided to believe. Again I am specifically speaking from God's viewpoint rather than ours, which is key because there is a vast difference in how we see things.

 

Me4Him- The issue is-

By God not giving faith/ or grace/ and letting people be given up to their nature, then it all of a sudden is His fault they are sinning because He didnt give them a chance? This is clearly not true, but rather shines a light on our infinite need of God's grace rather than ourselves. Here is why; if God doesnt do anything we are doomed, have no chance, and deserve it. even if God doesnt give mercy, our sin is still our fault.

Let me ask you, If saving faith isnt a natural outpoor of the inner work of the Spirit, then can we boast? I honestly feel as if unless I give God the glory for even my faith I am withholding glory from God.. If faith is a good thing and I who am evil had it, then I, on my own strength, had saving faith. So I strongly believe saving faith is part of the many blessings that flow from Salvation or else we would be able to lose our salvation (which is yet another rabbit trail).

Again, every many has fallen short. You defined sin as being unbelief. All have sinned, therefore all have given God a reason to reject them, and condemn them. Now all who labor and are heavy laden, come to Christ and he will give you rest, and not reject you.

You make good points on the Law. The Law is what shows us our condemnation and when understood, it leads us to the cross because we see we have given God every reason to send us to hell and then some.

 

This thread has run its course and is well over 30 pages. It needs to be closed.