Featured Are the OT Believers part of the Body of Christ?

When 1Pe_3:19 speaks of 'prison', isn't he talking about hell though...rather than some sort of purgatory? As I understand it, Purgatory is a Roman Catholic teaching that describes a temporary place of punishment. In general don't protestant churches reject the doctrine of purgatory?

And this prison then,... surely this isn't necessarily the abode of the OT saints. It seems rather that the prison is the likely destination of the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4) that God cast down into hell...the angels that rebelled against God.

 

The grave and Sheol/Hades are separate places. The grave is where the body lies. Sheol/Hades is where the soul and/or spirit of men went to after their physical death.

Concerning Enoch and Elijah; when they were raptured, their bodies were taken into heaven.

These are both figures of Christ.

No man was able to ascend to heaven except Christ (John 3:13). That is why I say that they are figures of Christ.

Concerning Hades/Sheol, there was a partition in it for the elect pre-Christ saints (the lazarus Luke 16 passage). Many of them had to wait for Christ's preaching to ascend with Him into the heavens (cf. John 5:24-29; Mt. 27:52-53; Eph. 4:8).

 

This is interesting.

Jn 5: 28-29 Christ says "Do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out _ those who have done good will live and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned".

We saw the dead rise when Jesus was crucified. (Mt 27: 52-53)

There was also a 3 day period I think before Jesus was resurrected. I've wondered what was going on during those 3 days?

Paul tells us in Eph 4:9 that he (Jesus?) descended into the lower, earthly regions. Or at least he asks the question.

What are these earthly regions? Hades? Hell?

Now this NIV study bible (I'm using it right now just because it is handy at the moment) says in the notes that Jesus probably did not descend into hell. But I've heard others say he did and preached there. So I don't know. What do ya'll think?

I don't think the OT saints were in Hell. I don't think Jesus preached to the OT saints in hell. Why would they be in Hell? But the angels who fell with Satan would be wouldn't they? So maybe Jesus preached to them?

Or maybe Jesus descended into Hades and the OT Saints were there? Maybe Jesus preached to them there?

I'm guessing here, but I would imagine that the OT saints probably rose during the resurrection and at that point it became obvious that the prophecy had become true and Jesus was who he said he was. At that point they probably became...Christian. :jesus:

 

Christ preached (John 5:24-29; 1Pet. 3:19-20), while He was in Hades/Sheol (Acts 2:25-31).

In order to have ascended with those captives, He had to have descended to Hades/Sheol where they dwelt first. This is why Paul asks the question: "In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?" (Eph. 4:9, ESV).

Think of our english word "hell" as the partition of Sheol/Hades where the wicked went and suffered, as that rich man did (Luke 16:24). If you read the original Hebrew and Greek, you'll find the words Sheol and Hades. Sheol is the same place as Hades. Sheol is Hebrew, Hades is Greek (If you study the New Testament Greek usage of the Hebrew Psalm 16:10, in Acts 2:25-31, you'll see this).

It is actually Hades (not "hell") that the rich man and Lazarus went to in Luke 16:19-31. If you look at the Greek, you'll see "Hades" in verse 23.

It is Sheol/Hades that all the Pre-Christ saints went to (Eccles. 9:10).

Sheol/Hades and the grave are separate places.

We see this in the account of Jacob and his son Joseph.

Jacob knew that he would go to Sheol to be with his son (Gen. 37:35).

Genesis 37 ESV
35 All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.

- Bold emphasis mine​

He also thought that his son was torn in pieces, and so therefore, his son wouldn't have a grave (in Jacob's mind; Gen. 37:32-33).

Genesis 37 ESV
32 And they sent the robe of many colors and brought it to their father and said, “This we have found; please identify whether it is your son's robe or not.” 33 And he identified it and said, “It is my son's robe. A fierce animal has devoured him. Joseph is without doubt torn to pieces.”

- Bold emphasis mine​

He couldn't have gotten to his son in a grave that didn't exist, if Joseph actually was torn in pieces.

Therefore, Sheol and the Grave are separate places.

There is another Hebrew word used for the grave.

Acts 2:25-31 overrides the NIV study Bible.

"[David] foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he [Christ] was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption" (Acts 2:31, ESV, Bold emphasis mine).​

Jesus was in Hades/Sheol. Matthew 12:39-40 also testifies of this:

"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40, ESV).​

They were in Sheol/Hades, but not in the suffering partition of it that the rich man was in (Luke 16:23). There was a "great chasm...fixed" (Luke 16:26, ESV).

They would be in Hades/Sheol, in the comforting partition of it:

"...now he [Lazarus] is comforted here [in Hades], and you [rich man] are in anguish" (Luke 16:25, ESV).​

 

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. :smilewinkgrin:

One of my favorite books is called "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. In it he talks a lot about what you are describing. I get that the grave and Hades are 2 different places. Alcorn mentions that Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you" and also to the thief on the cross "this day you will be with me in paradise".

It sounds like Jesus did something that changed the rules for people after death, in that maybe they no longer would have to go to Hades, but rather to what he called Paradise. I don't think this is the same as purgatory, which is what the Roman Catholics believe (I think) is a place of some form of punishment for folks who are not yet free of sin.

Anyway (I think ) maybe we have a situation where you have God residing in Heaven, Christians residing in Paradise after death and then bad folks down in Hades. Maybe Jesus remodeled it, I dunno. :laugh:

So when the Christian dies, do we go to Paradise to await judgement? (Not the place where God the Father resides...not yet).