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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DaChaser1, Jan 21, 2012.
just curious, as my pastor is one, even though majority of membership dispy premill!
I am a historical premillennialist.
forgive my ignorance.....what is a " premillennialist"
And how does your pastors stance on this affect your own position?
IMO, Historicism, whether premillennial or not, provides the best geo-political framework for Daniel and Revelation, beginning with a very sound root in Gen 3:15.
he has made me reexamine my held beliefs regarding especially pre trib rapture, but still holding to it!
one who holds to the Second Coming of Jesus as time when he will set up to rule upon this earth for period of 1,000 years...
called pre, as we hold to jesus return then the Kingdom set up fully upon earth, post hold to the Church bring in the Kingdom more and more fully, until once World fully converted to ways/systems of God, jesus would return!
A Mil hold to jesus ruling from heven right now upon heavenly throne, so have been in the Kingdom since his Ascension, and he returns to glorify saved, and judge the lost, then the eternal state!
The term is "historic" (rather than "historical" or "historicist").
In fact, so-called historic premillenialists are futurists, not historicists.
The term "historic" is merely a polemical assertion, meaning "our theory was formerly predominant among premillenialists".
isn't there main difference between say dispy pre Mils be in timing of the Rapture, as Dispy pre, their Post?
Yes, according to these so-called "historic premillenialists", the Church is not raptured before the Great Tribulation, but afterwards, just before the Millennium.
Historic Chiliasts, generally speaking, do not have a pre/mid/post trib position. Or, perhaps more accurately, there is no consensus of opinion for the timing of the catching-away.
Historic Pre-mils hold that there is one second coming--at the end of the tribulation. They hold that believers will go through the tribulation.
They are also called post-tribs.
I are one.
My late brother-in-law was strongly pre-trib. He used to gig me about it. He said, "when the pre-trib rapture comes, you're going whether you believe in it or not."
I agree with your brother-in-law.
I look for His coming anytime - that is hope yet unseen.
"While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," historic premillennialism is, in actuality, a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history."
a. Dispensationalists argue for the necessity of the literal interpretation of all of the prophetic portions of Scripture. Charles Ryrie makes this point very clearly:
When the principles of literal interpretation both in regard to general and special hermeneutics are followed, the result the premillennial system of doctrine... If one interprets literally, he arrives at the premillennial system.
This means that all promises made to David and Abraham under the Old Covenant are to be literally fulfilled in the future millennial age.
b. Dispensationalists insist that God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the "church age." This presupposition forms the basis for the dispensational hermeneutic. As John Walvoord states regarding the dispensational hermeneutic, "Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs."c. There is a "rapture" of believers when Jesus Christ secretly returns to earth before the seven year tribulation period begins (the seventieth week of Daniel, cf. Daniel 9:24-27). Believers do not experience the persecution of the Anti-Christ who rises to prominence during this "tribulation period." The Biblical data dealing with the time of tribulation is referring to unbelieving Israel, not the church. Therefore, church age, or the "age of grace," is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium.
d. The visible and physical second coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation. Those who are converted to Christ during the tribulation, including Jews (the 144,000) who turn to Christ, go on into the millennium to re-populate the earth. Glorified believers rule with Christ during his future reign.
e. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts. The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire predicted in Daniel as seen through the emergence of the EEC [common market], the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the secret return of Christ for his church. Antichrist is awaiting his revelation once the believing church is removed.
f. The millennium is marked by a return to Old Testament temple worship and sacrifice to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ. At the end of the millennium, the "great white throne" judgement occurs, and Satan and all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There is the creation of a new heaven and earth.
a. While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," ]historic premillennialism is, in actuality, a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history.
b. The basic features of historic premillennialism are as follows. When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry. Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgement. During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation.
C. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection. Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period.
d. At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgement. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.
It would be interesting to know how many well known 'historic premillenialists' have held to or applied popular historicist framework in interpretation of prophecy.
The line between Historic Premillennialism and Premillennial Historicism may not be as defined as you think.
Why is any of this important? I choose not to speculate on Christ's return (He tells me I wont know the hour & the day) so why make any of this a sticking point.....isnt it horrendous enough that we separate ourselves in our differences in salvation theology?
Guess I will remain a "Pan" guy (It will all pan out) till I can scripturally sort it out.
Until the Dispensational Judaizers arrived on the scene in the 19th century it probably wasn't much of a sticking point.
doesn't historic premill hold to an earthly Messiahnic(sp?) kingdom?
Yes, but they don't make the distinction between the Church and physical Israel like the dispies do. Historic premils see both as ONE people of God in Christ. Dispies put the Jew on the pedestal, they have the preeminance, Gentiles will serve Jews after this 'paragraph of the Church Age' (I cringe to say that) is over.
The dispie's gross misapplication of Gen 12:3 places a curse upon America if we don't unconditionally support physical Israel TODAY.
Go read the Politics Forum, the dispy 'Republicans' generally will only support the candidate that is most in allignment with LIKUD.