Are their current forum members who would like to discuss the Sabbath?

>What has Sunday worship got to do with Christians living in Washington?

The organized church has always worshipped on Sunday. Organized Judaism has always worshipped Fri pm to Sat pm.

As St Paul taught, if one intentionally adopts one of the 613 Laws, one has unintentionally adopted the rest of the 612.

 

The 4th commandment is part of the Ten Commandments.

The only thing inside the ark of the Covenant was the Ten Commandments according to 1Kings 8.

James 2 says that he who is guilty of breaking one of them - is guilty of breaking all of them.

D.L Moody admits in his sermon on the Ten Commandments that the 4th commandment still exists -and is still valid.

Charles Stanley affirms the same point in his online book found at google-books.

Isaiah 66 says that even in the New Earth - all mankind will come before God and worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath".

Paul argued in 1Cor 7:19 "But what Matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Rev 14 points out that the saints "keep the Commandments of God".

Paul says in Rom 3:31 that we do not make void the commandments of God by our faith - rather we establish them.

Rebellion against the sovereign of the universe happens in the form of rejecting His Word - His commands according to 1John 3.

Christ said in Matt 5 that if we teach others to ignore God's commands we will be called "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Bible testimony on this point is considerable.

1. There is not one single reference to a worship service on week-day-one in the NT where it occurs week after week.
2. In Acts 13 we have the curious case of Sabbath after Sabbath services held with gentiles and jews - where the Jews were rejecting the Gospel and the gentiles were accepting it. Yet Sabbath after Sabbath the invitation was to "come back the following Sabbath" instead of "hey gentiles - turns out we are meeting again tomorrow for worship and Bible study and the good news is that these pesky jews who are all mad about this message won't be there".

Facinating!

in Christ,

Bob

 

Where does The Bible claim that the Mosaic Covenant applies to gentiles outside the Land?

Where does the Bible claim that the 10 words applies to Christians?

Why didn't the Jerusalem Council instruct Paul to impose the 10 Commandments upon gentile Christians?

 

I would suggest reading the book of Galatians and really considering the fundamentals of the Christian religion. It saddens me to see so many trying, much like the Galatians, to either put themselves or allow themselves to be put under bondage. The days and months and times and years aren't important. We might as well be circumcised for religious purposes, observe the Jewish feast days, and become debtors to do the whole law.

 

What covenant do you suppose that a Jewish person in Bible times would be referring to?

Neither Have I seen the words "Abrahamic Covenant," Noahic Covenant," "Covenant of works" in the Bible but they describe a concept that has been around for 1500 years. I don't know how to converse with a person who only speaks in KJB phraseology.

The Mosaic Covenant includes all the promises and threats in the first five books of the OT.

 

You are correct GE -- I did not see your question at the top to use the word "reason" at all. It looked like you were asking if they were guilty of Sabbath breaking just because they chose not to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

By the way,

> . . . "The Law (I take, of "the 10 Commandments") is for the TRANSGRESSORS" of it . . .

In the same way that the speed limit is for the people who drive over the speed limit. I'm not impressed.

Then a person who does the 10 things is regenerate even if he never heard of Jesus? I agree!

> Now, if you, Billwald, are a transgressor of the Fourth Commandment Law, see for yourself how you are going to sidestep the Law, and don't drag others down damnation-lane with you. For it says: "Man is under the Law for as LONG AS HE LIVES" being a sinner; or are you not a sinner, Billwald?

Balderdash! Please define "under." Every person except Jesus in this world is a sinner as long as he is alive. You are not a sinner? Didn't your mother ever tell you you can go to Hell for lying? <G>


>Now I understood Jesus came to save sinners ..... Jesus ONLY SAVES those who are under the Law! We damned sinners are the privileged to salvation; no sinless "gentile Christians" SHALL BE SAVED.

You are confused. St Paul wrote:

Romans 2:6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

See, nothing about Jesus. Those who work at being a good neighbor are regenerate.


>8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

In other words, God favors those who do good works by being a good neighbor. Jesus taught that loving God and neighbor is sufficient and covers all the details. "Favoritism" would be only regenerating those who have heard of Jesus and said the proper words.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

In other words, being a good neighbor is evidence of one's regeneration. God is not anit-picker.

>"Why didn't the Jerusalem Council instruct Paul to impose the 10 Commandments upon gentile Christians?" BECAUSE NOBODY HAD TO! For it says there, "James answered .... I have decided .... that we (the Council) write to them .... (to) the Gentiles TURNED TO GOD .... GOD unto (whom) are known all his works FROM THE BEGINNING of the world ...."; "that we write to THEM (the Gentiles TURNED TO GOD) because Moses ever since has had in every city preachers, (Moses, i.e. the Old Testament and ONLY Scriptures / Law then) BEING READ in the CHURCHES (where those Gentiles converted to GOD, worshipped) EVERY SABBATH DAY."

OK, then why did the Jerusalem Council give ANY instructions to Paul and his gentiles?

 

In the Bible times of Hebrews 8 - we see the New Covenant.

In the Bible times of Jeremiah 31 - from which Paul quotes in Hebrews 8 - again we see the New Covenant.

In the Bible times of Paul writing in Gal 1:6-11 we see that HIS view was that there is only "one Gospel" in both O.T and N.T times.

In Heb 4:1-2 Paul says that the "Gospel was preached to use just as it was to them also".

In 2Cor 3 and James 2 we learn that the same Law (Ten Commandments) is written on the tablets of the human heart - in the New Covenant -- that was written on tablets of stone - in the Old Covenant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So in this case you would argue that the 4th commandment was made for Sabbath breakers?

I don't see how that is helping your argument.

Though it is not "likely" that they do not use images, or know about the 7th day Sabbath of Christ the Creator in that case.

That part is true.

But Paul argues that "What MATTERs is keeping the commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19.

In 1John 2 - John says that the one who claims to know Christ SHOULD Keep His commandments -- if that person does not WALK as Christ walked - John says their claim to know Christ is false.

In 1Cor 10 Paul clearly states that "no TEMPTATION has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able".

In Romans 6 - Paul argues that the one who claims to still be the "slave of sin" is in fact - servant to sin and not servant to Christ.

If the Christian life is one of non-stop sinning as you seem to have claimed - then non-stop lying is good Christian conduct by the rule you have laid out.

Truly in that model it would have been difficult for two Christians to have a meaningful conversation on any topic - much less the law of God.

OUTSTANDING!!

I did not expect to find that coming from your argument!

Notice that in Romans 2 - you have the contrast of TWO groups - the saved and the lost.

In Romans 2:11-16 we find

1. It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED Rom 2:13

2. Even those with no access to the Bible are judged as spiritually circumcised Jews -- judged to be saved - in that they "show the work of the Law written on their heart". Rom 2:15

3. There is a future day of judgment when "according to my Gospel God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:16



See, nothing about Jesus. Those who work at being a good neighbor are regenerate.

Thus in James 2 James says that we are to live and walk as those who ARE to be judged by the Ten Commandments - the "Law of Liberty".

In Eph 6:1-2 Paul says that in that Ten Commandment unit - the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise".

The Jer 31:31 New Covenant writes the LAW of God on the tablets of the human heart as promised in Deut 6:6 according to the complete statement of the New Covenant outlined in Hebrews 8.

In Ps 40:8 that New Covenant "condition" of the heart is claimed by David.

In Eph 2 and in Acts 15:1 the argument is made that some Jewish Christians were claiming that Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved.

But in Acts 15 the Apostles declare that all that is needed to acceptance of "the scriptures" (the O.T text as the Word of God) and worship of the One True God.

Circumcision was code for "convert to Judaism" as we see in Ephesians 2.

Notice that in Acts 15 the gentiles are told to abstain from meat offerred to idols (something Paul objects to later) and to abstain from meat that has blood still in it (a Levitical restriction on food) - and from fornication.

It is stated that they do not need to be circumcised - do not need to practice all the rituals pertaining to Jewish Christians.

Then immediately - in Acts 16 -- Paul instructs Timothy to be circumcised.

The issue in Acts 15 was not that "you are lost if you are circumcised after becoming a Christian" -- obviously.

The issue is that there is no such requirement as converting to Judaism - as a necessary step in being saved -- especially if one is a gentile to start with.

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul states clearly that circumcision is off the table for gentiles YET there he is quick to add that - what still matters for gentiles is "keeping the commandments of God".

So it is not too surprising that D.L.Moody and Charles Stanley both argue that the 4th commandment is still binding upon all Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

 

This is not a debate about Jewish feast days of Lev 23.

It is not a debate about the pagan observances of "days months seasons and years" found in Gal 4 -- the observance of which would cause any Christian (yes even a Jewish one) to lose salvation according to Paul in Gal 4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

>But in Acts 15 the Apostles declare that all that is needed to acceptance of "the scriptures" (the O.T text as the Word of God) and worship of the One True God.

OK NOW WE ARE IN AGREEMENT! The people who first studied the scriptures, the OT as the word of God, counted 613 positive and negative statements of the LAW in the OT.

 

There are a lot of reasons people find for turning away from scripture. But in Matt 5 Christ upholds Scripture.

In Romans 3:31 Paul upholds scripture saying "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God".

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul explicitly states that while circumcision vs no-circumcision is a nothing discussion -- yet "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Notice that in Eph 6:1-4 Paul quotes the Scriptures and affirms that NT saints are obligated to honor and obey the Word of God. There he happens to quote the 5th commandment.

Paul never says "ignore the Word of God -because it has too many commands".

in Christ,

Bob

 

My argument is not against the idea that gentiles were being warned against pagan practices.

The OT scriptures condemn pagan practices just as does the NT.

My point is that in Acts 15 the Apostles uphold the teaching of scripture instead of arguing that scripture is invalid for gentiles.

The fact that Leviticus prohibits the same eating of meat with blood in it -- (forbids eathing meat that has been strangled) - would be directed against paganism at the time of Moses just as it was at the time of Acts 15.

I think we can all agree that pagans existed in both the OT and NT.

Acts 15 concludes with Mosaic laws commanded of the Gentiles from the Acts 15 council
Acts 15:28-29 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden then this - that you ABSTAIN from
- things sacrificed to idols (Exodus 20:1-3)
-and from blood and from things strangled (Gen 9:4, Lev 3:17. Lev 7:26-27)
-and from fornication (Ex 20:14)"

 

http://www.aish.com/jl/m/48945081.html


Laws of Forbidden Foods
176 To examine the signs of animals to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:2
177 To examine the signs of fowl to distinguish between kosher
and non-kosher Deut. 14:11
178 To examine the signs of fish to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:9
179 To examine the signs of locusts to distinguish between kosher and non-kosher Lev. 11:21
180 Not to eat non-kosher animals Lev. 11:4
181 Not to eat non-kosher fowl Lev. 11:13
182 Not to eat non-kosher fish Lev. 11:11
183 Not to eat non-kosher flying insects Deut. 14:19
184 Not to eat non-kosher creatures that crawl on land Lev. 11:41
185 Not to eat non-kosher maggots Lev. 11:44
186 Not to eat worms found in fruit on the ground Lev. 11:42
187 Not to eat creatures that live in water other than fish Lev. 11:43
188 Not to eat the meat of an animal that died without ritual slaughter Deut. 14:21
189 Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned Ex. 21:28
190 Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded Ex. 22:30
191 Not to eat a limb torn off a living creature Deut 12:23
192 Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17
193 Not to eat certain fats of clean animals Lev. 3:17
194 Not to eat the sinew of the thigh Gen. 32:33
195 Not to eat meat and milk cooked together Ex. 23:19
196 Not to cook meat and milk together Ex. 34:26
197 Not to eat bread from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
198 Not to eat parched grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
199 Not to eat ripened grains from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
200 Not to eat fruit of a tree during its first three years Lev. 19:23
201 Not to eat diverse seeds planted in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
202 Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
203 Not to drink wine poured in service to idols Deut. 32:38
Laws of Slaughtering
204 To ritually slaughter an animal before eating it Deut. 12:21
205 Not to slaughter an animal and its offspring on the same day Lev. 22:28
206 To cover the blood (of a slaughtered beast or fowl) with earth Lev. 17:13
207 Not to take the mother bird from her children Deut. 22:6
208 To release the mother bird if she was taken from the nest Deut. 22:7