Featured Are there Modern Apostles/prophets today?

What would be more concerning about Joel not being an apostle is that he never recounts a personal conversion experience or that he frequently receives communication from God.

 

Perhaps one of the things that those who believe apostles are still in operation today can do for us is to handle how by the second generation of believers there was a clear move away from placing the designation of "Apostle" on anyone?

Why, in the midst of the formation of the earliest episcopal ecclesiologies (and the others too), was there not a formal move to identify one or more of the metropolitan bishoprics as the "Apostolic" seat and thus the bishop who held it was an "Apostle?"

Seems to me that the early church clearly understood that the move was apostolic authority conferred onto a line of faithful preachers and leaders...not the office.

 

I take God at his word you don't. You even misinterpret Scripture, like the one above to try and support your cause. The above verse has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit, absolutely nothing. Again, if the gifts of the Spirit were in operation there would be evidence that they were in operation. You have no evidence. That should be clear proof to you that they are not in operation. Why do you deny evidence? Why do you keep claiming something that is not.

I will tell you a story. Listen well. It has great implications on your spiritual well-being. The planet of Pluto is inhabited by little green gods who actually created this earth, and have power over you. They eat green cheese, and they want you to do the same. If you don't they will destroy you. You need to obey them. Your destiny is in their hands. These gods are all powerful. Their power base is on the planet of Pluto, which no one has ever been to or seen. Beware of the little green gods of Pluto who say you must eat green cheese in order to exist.

Do you believe the above is true? Why or why not? Probably not? Why not? Because there is no evidence that it is true, just as there is no evidence that the gifts of the Holy Spirit is in operation. Just as you say: "you have no faith;" I can say the same thing: "You have no faith in the above story." And you don't. There is no evidence for either one. If you have no evidence there is no reason to believe.

Without evidence there is no reason to believe. You operate on blind faith.
Even the Hindus do better than you do. They believe in Ram, Vishnu, Brahma, and Ganesh, the elephant god. But with what evidence do they know these gods existed? They have as much as you do, and perhaps more.

 

No, I have showed through scriptures why I believe. You on the other hand have theorized it away..without sciptures. YOu say it is gone because you have not seen one!

#1. Yes, the gift of the Holy Spirit is still for today and He still manifest Himself through His church.
#2. I believe they are still present today! I believe they have always been called out and some have answered the call. Man cannot over rule God..but if God calls one to salvation, apostle, teaching, pastor etc. and they do not answer the call. Who's fault is it? God's? NO! God has done His part! It is man that walks in unbelief and have received wrong teachings.

No, He has not removed His Holy Spirit! He is the gift! He still manifest Himself today! No where do you find your "apostolic age" or "first century" theory in the Bible!

AGAIN...His truth will magnify Him! I never said the Holy Spirit would magnify the apostles. As a matter of fact you lean more to that than I do. You magnify them more than I do! The Holy Spirit will lead us TO ALL TRUTH! This incudes the truth about the apostles and prophets!

I do not know how your read this into my post! I never said that we receive anything from the dead apostles. THey laid down the foundation (teachings)...we are to build upon those teachings. The apostles are "sent out ones"..they equip the church with a foundation. Many churches have left the foundational teachings of the apostles. Apostles are here to "perfect the saints for the work of the ministry" "edify the body of Christ"...TILL we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of stature of the fulness of Christ.

And Paul, how did he witness this? Are you saying God CANNOT show himself to others as He did Paul? Show me one verse that says he will not!

see above...

THere teachings are here with us, yes! There teachings are the foundation! An aposltes does more..The apostle has the responsibility to lay the foundation correctly. (Eph.2:20-22,1Cor.3:10)..not to change it but to continue it! " If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? (Psa.11:3)
On the day of Pentecost, it was the apostle Peter that stood up with the Word of the prophet Joel and laid the foundation ( gave direction Eph.2:20-22, 2Peter.3:1-2) to the 1st. century Church. (Acts.2:17, Joel.2:28-32) The Bible says. "they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine..." (Acts.2:42) The apostles direction / foundation. (Eph.2:20-22, 1Cor.3:10-11)

I never said the apostles today would take the place of the original 12! They have there special place...but that does not prove that today we do not have apostles!

 

I don't need evidence to believe...that is the opposit of faith! I do need His Word! I believe before I see it! But I have seen it and lived it! I am not called to be an apostle...so He does not manifest through me like He does an apostle. Most people's faith are at a level like those in the wilderness...they saw and lived it and still limit God! I do not limit God!

Because I believe GOD'S WORD..not mans. I do not have faith in something that is not in God's word.

Wrong...read Heb.11:1! I do not need evidence! ALL I NEED IS GOD'S WORD IT IS SO! I did not see Jesus die on the cross either! I did not see him resurrect either....BUT HIS WORD SAYS HE DID AND I BELIEVE IT...WITHOUT EVIDENCE! Remember what he told doubting Thomas? Thomas would not believe until he had evidence...but he said "..blessed are they that have not seen , and yet they believe."

 

Go and do further study of Heb.11:1, PLEASE! You don't have a clue what it means.

You do need evidence. Look at the comparison now. The Hindus don't have any evidence that their elephant god, Ganesh ever existed. It is a mythological god, and that is all. It is based entirely on myth and not fact.

You may not have seen the resurrection personally but many have. In fact we have over 500 witnesses to the resurrection. To go back in history and call them all liars would be an incredibly insane thing to do. Plus there is far more evidence then just the witnesses of the resurrection. There is the empty tomb, the Roman guard that guarded it day and night; sealed with the Roman seal; and even more. Read Josh McDowell's books "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict." He lays out the Evidence why we believe what we believe. We believe in a message based on fact, not myth.
Thomas saw Christ. That is true. But we still have the facts of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and have no reason to doubt them. We have over 5,000 manuscripts to attest to the veracity of the NT, the accounts which tell us about that resurrection and the facts that relate to it.

Our manuscript evidence is greater then the manuscript evidence that supports the writings of Shakespeare, and yet we believe the works of Shakespeare are his works.
I believe Shakespeare was a man and existed, along with the various kings and queens of England. The same is true of Nero, the emperor of Rome at the time of Paul. I have no reason to disbelieve that he existed as emperor at that time. I can back that up with facts, unlike the Hindu that cannot back up that their god Ganesh ever existed. These are all facts.
Christ arose from the dead. My belief is based on fact.

Your belief in today's existence of the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is akin to the Hindu's belief in Ganesh. There is no evidence. You operate on blind faith. You cannot provide any evidence anywhere in the world. If it is not based on fact then it is based on myth. It is a myth that they exist today. It is just your say so, and no more because you can't provide the evidence.
You might as well believe in the green gods that live on Pluto. Where is the evidence? Without evidence there is no reason to believe anything that you say. Belief is always based on fact, not opinion. You give your opinion, not the facts of the Word of God. I don't believe your Hinduistic-type interpretation of the Word of God, which is simply blind faith, no evidence.

 

Please give me YOUR interpretation...then we can compare scripture with scripture conccerning faith without evidence.

But we have the facts about our faith...don't we?

Correct..and those facts are in the Bible!

We have facts...In His Word! Can't believe you missed the second part of that..."..blessed are they that have not seen , and yet they believe." How much plainer can you get on faith...BELIEVING BEFORE YOU SEE! I never said blindly believe...believe His Word!

Exactly! Believe the Word before you see the evidence! I believed in Christ just by a Sunday school teacher explaining it to me...without evidence! Just His Word!
That is how we please God...believe His Word before we see evidence of that salvation!

You are still demanding evidence before you believe. I never experienced the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in my life until after I repented of my unbelief and told God I believe His Word. I really did not even understand what I do today...but that night I believed in my heart before the evidence appeared in my life.

I do have evidence in my life! But I could write every manifestation in my life and you still will not believe. If you do not believe what is in scripture....you just will not believe!

Get off the green gods...it is a litttle ridiculous and you are showing how desperate you are getting..trying to defending your theory!

 

Let's talk about Biblical evidence and not the unbiblical phenomena that began in 1905 and was unheard of before that time except among paganism and cults.

If Biblical it would have been a known language. You could have been a missionary to a foreign land like India and spoken one of their many languages like Telegu, Hindi, Punjabi, etc. That is what the gift of languages would be for today. But, alas, even the Charismatics of today must learn the language before going on the foreign mission field. The fact is you don't even know what language you are speaking. Keep in mind the gift of tongues/languages is a supernatural gift of an actual language used to communicate to those who did know the language that the other person was speaking.
"How hear we every man in our own language."
But there is no evidence that you had that experience or that any Charismatic had that experience, or that anyone else in the world has been given this miraculous gift. We all have to learn the languages of the nations we go to. They are not miraculously given to us by God. That is the gift of languages.

Thus your "manifestation" isn't a manifestation of the Spirit at all, is it? It is an emotional experience and nothing more. There is nothing supernatural about it. You bring no evidence that you have spoken in another language. You can't communicate with others. Why say you can do something when you can't. It is hypocritical.

 

The notion that certain spiritual things would end when the bible was completed is an unbelievers safety net. They have just begun. The manifesting of Christ through the believers body working miracles in love for others, is the hope of His glory. Apostles do it, and plain believers do it. It is for the receivers benefit, and Christ gets the glory. Anything else is just a preacher with word only, and no power. Sozo-

 

No doubt here is what you did:

Just follow the instructions on the internet!


http://www.absolutebiblestudy.com/Advanced/How_To_Speak_In_Tongues.htm

 

THis is way off topic of this thread...but this does not surprise me with you anymore DHK...because you always seem to turn our conversations back to "tongues".

Of course you have to learn the language to go to a foreign country...because "tongues" has nothing to do with spreading the gospel to foreign lands.

I have addressed this on other threads..not going to rehash it here with you for the hundreth time. BUT....I will say this "tongues" is a manifestation of the Spirit and to say otherwise would be denying the scriptures.

This thread is about apostles and prophets...not about me and how the Holy Spirit choses to manifest through me....:wavey:

 

There is more written on the gift of tongues then on any other gift. It is a good example.
2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4 tell us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the signs of an Apostle. If the Apostle cannot perform these signs he is not an apostle. They were to authenticate him as an apostle, a messenger of God, and his message as a message from God. Read the Scripture.

That is precisely what it was for. Not only the gospel, but preaching and teaching the Word of God--that portion of the Word of God that was not complete after the time of the writing of Paul's epistle to the Corinthians in particular. Almost all of the NT was written after 55 A.D., the date of that epistle. It was a revelatory gift. Paul also said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." Why? He went to foreign nations, other churches in foreign nations to preach the gospel, teach those in churches in their own language.

It is only a "manifestation" of the Spirit if it is spoken in another actual language. That is where your ambiguity of the definition of "manifestation" comes in. God reveals the gift of languages miraculously by His Holy Spirit, in that he gives this supernatural gift to those that need it. It is obvious that you don't need it. What people is God sending you to where you would have need of another language. "Tongue" means "language."

Tongues were a sign of an apostle, as were all the gifts of the Spirit. Check Heb.2:3,4. Do you believe the Bible, Awaken? Then use it!

 

So anyone that speaks in tongues is an apostle? Not so!

Not going there on this thread with you...already hashed it out!

THe manifestation of the Holy Spirit is for the church to edify, exhort and comfort! It was not given to the unbelievers or to win the unbelievers! THEY WERE GIVEN TO THE CHURCH...NOW BACK TO TOPIC...I think you forget what thread you are on..

Again, more than the apostles spoke in tongues. I do believe in the Word of God..just not man's interpretation of it!

 

Read my post again, carefully. Then read along with it Heb.2:3,4.
It is not speaking of only tongues.

You simply fail to concede that tongues was a revelatory gift as indicated in 1Cor.13:8ff. It is.

Yes, they were given to the church. That puts to death any such thing as a private prayer language. The gift of languages was only one of many gifts that were given to the apostles, all of which were given to the apostles as a sign.

The apostles performed signs and wonders, did miracles, and displayed the gifts of the Holy Spirit of which tongues was only one. I simply used tongues as an example. You didn't read my post very carefully.

Go back and memorize 2Cor.12:12 and Heb.2:3,4. It might do you some good.

 

No where in that verse does it say it is revelatory! It just says it will cease. 1 Cor. 14 tells you what tongues are for!

Again...so was teaching. Now I guess you are going to tell me now I have keep ALL teaching of scriptures in church too?
The apostles were not the only one that spoke in tongues!!! It was not JUST FOR THE APOSTLES!

So what is your point? I never said they did not manifest the Holy Spirit!

I could memorize the whole book...but It will not explain away that others also could manifest the Holy Spirit.

 

Pay attention to context. From 13:8 to the end of chapter 14 every verse is speaking of "revelation."
Prophecy is a "revelatory" gift. It is a vehicle of revelation.
Tongues is a "revelatory" gift. It is a vehicle of revelation.
Knowledge is a "revelatory" gift. It is a vehicle of revelation.

Therefore when The Revelation (the Bible) would be complete, these temporary vehicles of revelation would be done away with. They would no longer be needed. It is quite evident that the knowledge is not common knowledge. We are not mindless zombies. In fact our knowledge increases day by day. The day you stop learning is the day you die. Your knowledge increases each day. It will never stop, not even in heaven. But revelatory knowledge has already passed away or ceased because God's Word is complete and there will never be any word added to it again.

Go and memorize Heb.2:3,4. Why haven't you even read them yet? Or don't you understand them?
Needless to say "the teaching" referred to hear was a "supernatural" gift. It refers to teaching knowledge that they hadn't received. What do you do when you have the opportunity to teach. You take your Bible, perhaps other commentaries, or books, maybe study historical background, cross reference Scripture, etc.
Those early believers did not have the NT. They had the OT, only. They did not have even a concordance. What writings they had were based more on tradition, the tradition of the Rabbis, not exegetical or expository commentaries such as we like to have. So what was the "gift of teaching"? It was the ability to take NT truth (not yet written) and teach it to others. That was a supernatural gift.

No one else manifested [/b]the gifts of the Holy Spirit[/b] as they did.

You are deficient still in the meaning of this word, even though it has been explained to you. You don't manifest the Holy Spirit. The word manifest means reveal. The Holy Spirit reveals or manifests himself through a person by various means. Today he is manifested through the fruit of the Spirit. We can also see the Holy Spirit manifest Himself through conviction that comes on others.
In the OT he manifest himself in the wilderness wandering as a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day. To Moses he manifested himself through a burning bush. The word is "reveal." This is how God revealed himself.

In the first century the Holy Spirit chose to reveal himself to unbelieving Jews through the Apostles as He gave them power in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Tongues especially were a sign to the Jews. If they did not heed that sign and repent they would go into judgment. They did not repent. Judgement came in 70 A.D. and the Temple was destroyed and the nation dispersed. The Temple still has not been rebuilt. Not until 1948 was Israel recognized once again as a nation.

 

Now, try reading that without your additions. Nowhere in scriptures does it say tongues is revelatory. UNLESS you are finally admitting that the person that is speaking does not know what they are praying and when God interpretes then He is revealing to them mysteries..Yes! you might be on to something there...

Again you miss my point...I see now that your only looking for fault in my post and miss my points. I was referring to teaching outside the church! You said tongues was for the church, yet you say it is for unbelievers...you are confused about tongues!

But they did manifest, and so can we!

[/quote]You are deficient still in the meaning of this word, even though it has been explained to you. You don't manifest the Holy Spirit. The word manifest means reveal. The Holy Spirit reveals or manifests himself through a person by various means. Today he is manifested through the fruit of the Spirit. We can also see the Holy Spirit manifest Himself through conviction that comes on others.[/quote] I never limited the HOly Spirit! If you just want to Him to manifest the fruits, then be content with the fruits (character) without power manifestations.

Are we discussing Apostles and prophets or manifestations?

The Holy Spirit was poured out the day of Pentecost for the church! They here to encourage, exhort etc. The church needs them more now than then! BUT we are discussing apostles and prophets on this thread.

 

There are no apostles today.
Why are there no apostles today.
1. They had to be witnesses of the resurrection of Jesus Christ according to Acts 1. No one here today is a witness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There are no apostles today.

2. The apostles were authenticated by the gifts of the Spirit, as the readers of the Book of Hebrews testified. That is the one way that they knew that these men were the apostles. They came doing signs, wonders, accompanied with the gifts of the Spirit. That is what authenticated these men as apostles of Christ. We have no men today that can perform or have those gifts. We have no Apostles today.

3. You claim the gifts of today, but have no evidence. Unlike the readers of the Book of Hebrews who could testify: "Look at these men do signs and wonders, miracles, and have a display of the gifts of the Spirit; Surely they are the Apostles of Christ."
You have nothing, zilch, nada, zero. They had evidence that the men that came to them were indeed Apostles of Christ, and not false apostles. That is what the gifts were for--to authenticate the real from the false.

Hebrews 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation--which at the first having been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard;
4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by various works of power, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will? (WEB)

Note: The Hebrews didn't have the gifts. They point to the apostles that had the gifts.

 

So you are saying that the Corinthians manifested the Holy Spirit, but the Hebrews did not? Where do you get this from?

 

The Bible. Do you read it?
Read 1Cor.12 slowly and carefully. Do any of the members of the Corinthian church have all the gifts of the Spirit? Yes or no?
Read especially from verses 28ff.
Which gift is the least important of all the gifts according to verse 28?
According to verses 29,30, do any the members have all the gifts?

According to Heb.2:3,4 they knew who the apostles were because the all the gifts of the Spirit were manifested through the Apostles. They all worked miracles, signs, wonders, tongues, etc. When Paul would speak in tongues in another church he would interpret for himself. He would go where no man had ever preached the gospel before.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: