Are There Scriptures That Say...?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Oct 18, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. Are there Scriptures that say that the Church is God's Plan B, because His Plan A of establishing the Kingdom failed when the Jews rejected their Messiah?

    2. I actually grew up hearing something like this.
     
  2. mcdirector

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    Since God knew the end when He wrote the beginning, how can the church be His plan B?
     
  3. mcdirector

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    Obviously I don't have Scripture for your proposed thesis ;)
     
  4. TCGreek

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    Oh, how I wish I had that question loaded into my little mind growing up, so I could have shot it at those who were speaking of the church as Plan B!
     
  5. mcdirector

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    You needed a question plan B for TC :laugh:
     
    #5 mcdirector, Oct 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2007
  6. npetreley

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    Here's one...

    The (gentiles included) church was already part of the plan.
     
  7. SaggyWoman

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    I have never heard of this God Plan A/B.
     
  8. TCGreek

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    Yeah, that's a good one.
     
  9. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    I have seen it espoused on this board a number of times.
     
  10. LeBuick

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    If you consider the garden, wouldn't the Church be plan C? This assumes the original plan was for man to be in complete communion with God.
     
  11. mcdirector

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    LeBuick - linear speaking, you are probably right, but since God views time differently and knew the beginning and the end, I still have a hard time with alternative plans.
     
  12. Zenas

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    The 7th Chapter of Hebrews has this theme, although it emphasizes that Plan B (Christ and, by extension, the Church) is far better than Plan A (the law).
     
  13. skypair

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    TC,

    Deut 28 is the origins of the 2 plans. It speaks of blessing and cursing for Israel. If they A) obeyed, they would be blessed and rule. If the B) disobeyed, they would be ruled and destroyed.

    Then look at Rom 11. The olive tree tells a similar story regarding their religious privileges. When Messiah came and they rejected Him, most all of them were "cut out" of the tree and replaced by "wild branches" -- Gentiles.

    Neither of these is to say that they won't be taken back up again when God fulfills His promises to them.

    In fact, Dan 9:26 tells of a "postponement" between Messiah's rejection (week 69) and His coming to fulfill 9:24 (Week 70) between which the Gentile church would be born -- "Plan B." This parallels the "fig tree" parables in Mt and Deut 28 very well. The fig tree wouldn't produce but Jesus let the gardeners have another year. When He saw it again fruitless, He curesed it and it died (symbolizing Israel, the nation). But in Mt 24:32, hte disciples were astonished to learn that the fig tree (national Israel) would be revived!

    Jesus, in John 10 said He had another "fold" He must also bring in --- "Plan A" and "Plan B," Jews and Gentiles. In Matthew, he announced His new program, the church, in Mt 16:18.

    Do you see the 2 plans? Their respective members do not have the same promises. The church has heavenly promises (John 14:1-4, Rev 2-3), Israel earthly ones (Dan 9:24). We have 2 commandments; Israel has 10+ (about 316 as I remember). Their's is physical sanctification through the law; ours spiritual through the new covenant. Summarily speaking, they are not a bit alike.

    skypair
     
  14. LeBuick

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    Oh, I agree with ya, I was being an advocate

    1Pe 1:18 (KJV) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    @ Skypair = We know the history of the two plans, however, there are some of us who believe God knew Man could not be righteous by the Law just as he know Man would sin in the garden. For this reason, from the beginning of time and before there was a heaven or an earth the complete plan (singular) was for the Lamb of God to be slain for the sin's of the world. This aligns with an all knowing God as opposed to a God who failed at his first plan so had to come up with an alternate.
     
  15. mcdirector

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    It is an interesting discussion for discussions sake :thumbs:
     
  16. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    There is no scripture that compartmentalizes plans as if God needed a back up plan if the other fell through. Since we were elected before all of creation it is clear that Romans 8:28 has always been true.
     
  17. TCGreek

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    1. Why should we have to consider difference unfolding of God's plan, Plan A, B and so on, since He foreordained everything,

    2. And since His covenant with Abraham to bless his seed was unilateral?
     
  18. skypair

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    You're not getting it, are you? God has a "program" for angels but y'all are still stuck on ONLY the one He has for the church ---- as if we were the "be all, end all." You're responding like "Johnny one covenant." :laugh:

    Why should we consider any difference?? Makes a difference in eschatology. Makes a difference in sotierology -- gospels.

    And yes, God did make an "unconditional covenant" with Abraham -- but not with the church. AND that was only one covenant of 7! Most of them were CONDITIONAL -- like the new covenant which you happen to think is unconditional, "all of God."

    Shall we start a thread on covenant and get to the bottom of this?

    skypair
     
  19. TCGreek

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    1. I happened to believe that God is in control of this universe and all that happens in it.

    2. So to speak of Plan B and so on, implies that someone has frustrated the plan of God. The last time I checked not even a pagan like Nebuchanezzar believes such (Dan 4:35).

    3. The dispensationalism that I see in Scripture doesn't allow for this two-path salvation of your camp.

    4. Demonstrate to me how the covenants are all conditional outside of the Abrahamic.

    5. BTW, every other covenant in Scripture is an aspect of the Abrahamic covenant. Did you get that memo? :laugh:
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/DEVENTER1.HTM

    Modern premillennialism teaches that God has not one, but two separate peoples of God, Israel and the Church. This teaching, known as dispensationalism, was developed in the 1830's by J.N. Darby. Darby, seeking to legitimize his newly created rapture theory and its two "second comings," divided up the Bible into passages for Israel and the Church. [1]According to traditional dispensationalism, Jesus came to deliver the kingdom to the Jews, but the Jews rejected Him and caused Him to die on the cross. Thus, Christ's death on the cross was not part of God's plan. [2] As a result, the coming of the kingdom was postponed until the second coming of Christ and is not present today except in "mystery form." [3]Christ's rejection caused a "parenthesis" in time in which the "prophetic clock" stopped ticking. [4] Because the Jews rejected the Messiah, God created the Church as a Plan B that dispensationalists claim was wholly unanticipated, even by the Old Testament prophets. [5]
     

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