Are there "true salvations" if a false gospel is presented?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by MalkyEL, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Christ4Kildare made an interesting statement: "My point was to show the extremes to which pragmatic evangelism can be carried. Certainly some will be saved after having their interest sparked by the movie. My point was "does that make it right?"

    donnA also stated that truth mixed with lies is untruth. So can we justify a movie like The Passion, which many have seen as a false gospel [untruth], to be used by God to proclaim the Good News? What lasting effects and changes will there be in a person's life under these circustances? Does God advocate the use of violence [movie was rated R for violence] to bring people into His Kingdom?

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I said in another thread, there is no such thing as a prefect witness, save the Holy Spirit Himself. If one is to assert that witnesses that contain errors are a false Gospel, then all that we have brought to Christ have seen a false Gospel. Most certainly, I, a sinner, am not a perfect witness, and in some cases, I'm a poor one. Does that mean that those who were brought to the Lord by me are not really saved and believe in a false GOspel? Not likely, unless I also think that the Holy Spirit is incapable of revealing Himself without me.

    Indeed, the Holy Spirit will bring people to the Lord, who have by viewing of the Passion, been planted a seed. Likewise will the Holy Spirit do the same with the imperfect seeds that you and I plant, or the imperfect seeds that another movie, or a speaker, or a song plants. To think that the Holy Spirit only uses one imperfect source, or only uses one imperfect person, or only one imperfect movie, or only one imperfect song, or only one imperfect writing to save people is to limit the Holy Spirit. Further, to think that the Holy Spirit cannot use these is to presume the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    If that is true, I am wondering if we can justify that God has advocated and blessed a movie that excells in and is based in mysticism and divination - which is contrary to His Word.

    The gospel of the Bible is a pure message with God's full intent and purpose intact.

    I do not read of examples in His Word that He muddies the water with visions of mysticism and expects people to strain out His Truth from that.

    As His kids, we have His Word to share the Gospel with the lost - this is the perfect will of God. Agreed?
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    The movie in question is not, and no movie is, Gospel. They're movies. They're visual portrayals based on screenplays, which are written by humans, and not divinely inspired. Even if one uses only biblical source texts for a screenplay, it is impossible to make a movie without infusion of dramatic license. Now, if one tries to say that the movie is Gospel, then yes, it would be presenting a false Gospel, because the only Gospel in existence is the one contained in scriptures. No movie, not the Passion, not Jesus of Nazareth, not Veggietales, not King of Kings, not The Ten Commandments, not Ben Hur, the Jesus Film Project, comes close to being the Gospel, replacing the Gospel, or perfectly depicting the Gospel. Anyone who says otherwise gives them too much credit, and ends up belittling the Gospel (which they often claim that these movies do). That being said, I'd recommend any of these for viewing.
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,972
    Likes Received:
    129
    Brother, perhaps it's you that's adding to the gospel.

    To say that those who have truly repented of their sins are not saved because the messenger was flawed is wrong.

    Rob
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is utterly false and not rooted in Scripture.

    I am not perfect, but I can perfectly testify to the truth of something.

    The Scriptures in crystal clear terms lays out the facts of the gospel. It also demands that one repent of their sin and place their faith in Christ.

    That is the perfect revelation of the gospel, from the perfect revelation of God, the Scriptures, concerning the perfect revelation of God, Christ, about the perfect salvation that GOD declared.

    I only repeat what God has already said. Therefore, it is perfect.
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then we should toss out all the Veggietales videos.
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Johnv, do you depend on Veggietales for evangelism?
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't "depend" on anything but scripture and the Holy Spirit for evangelism. But using tools like "Veggietales", "The Ten Commandments", "The Prince of Egypt", or "The Passion of the Christ" is certainly acceptible for an individual.

    Your point?
     
  10. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    johnv wrote:
    I don't "depend" on anything but scripture and the Holy Spirit for evangelism. But using tools like "Veggietales", "The Ten Commandments", "The Prince of Egypt", or "The Passion of the Christ" is certainly acceptible for an individual.

    Your point?


    MalkyEL:
    I was totally with ya all the way to "but".
    I really prefer to stick with the double edged Sword rather than the plastic imitation "tools" :eek: :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  11. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is utterly false and not rooted in Scripture.

    I am not perfect, but I can perfectly testify to the truth of something.

    The Scriptures in crystal clear terms lays out the facts of the gospel. It also demands that one repent of their sin and place their faith in Christ.

    That is the perfect revelation of the gospel, from the perfect revelation of God, the Scriptures, concerning the perfect revelation of God, Christ, about the perfect salvation that GOD declared.

    I only repeat what God has already said. Therefore, it is perfect.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Correct! As long as we quote Scripture 100% accurately when we witness, we have a sure Word and a sure Witness in the Holy Spirit Himself! We are very capable of doing this because it is right in front of us in black and white (or red and white) so we cannot err when what comes out of our mouth is accurate Scripture but also know that it is not really us that is uttering the words it is the Spirit Himself that does the thing!
     
  12. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    MIKE!!!!!!!

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    AMEN BROTHER !!! RIGHT ON!!!

    [​IMG] :D [​IMG]
     
  13. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't understand your point about this.

    If this method does not call for repentance of sin and faith in Christ alone, it should not be considered an evangelistic tool.
     
  14. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    189
    This is utterly false and not rooted in Scripture.

    I am not perfect, but I can perfectly testify to the truth of something.

    The Scriptures in crystal clear terms lays out the facts of the gospel. It also demands that one repent of their sin and place their faith in Christ.

    That is the perfect revelation of the gospel, from the perfect revelation of God, the Scriptures, concerning the perfect revelation of God, Christ, about the perfect salvation that GOD declared.

    I only repeat what God has already said. Therefore, it is perfect.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Correct! As long as we quote Scripture 100% accurately when we witness, we have a sure Word and a sure Witness in the Holy Spirit Himself! We are very capable of doing this because it is right in front of us in black and white (or red and white) so we cannot err when what comes out of our mouth is accurate Scripture but also know that it is not really us that is uttering the words it is the Spirit Himself that does the thing!
    </font>[/QUOTE]As long as you're doing it front an original autograph in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. Otherwise you're introducing, at the very least, the interpretation of the translater or translation committee.
     
  15. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question I want you to answer is do you or do you not believe that any of these recent conversions after viewing the passion are real. In your quote above you cast doubt in advance I might add on their conversion and their new life in Christ. This is shameful and I don't plan on seeing it here again. To your question above about God using an r rated movie to bring people into His kingdom. I first want to say that I am concerned about the violence but did people not come to Christ after viewing or receiving a detailed account of Christ's crucifiction? If so then was that origional event not rated atleast r for it's extreme violence? This film with it's error has accomplished the feat of showing a new audience the horror of the cross and yes God can use that to stir souls to seek Him. He can use anything. Read the bible and see if God does not use many horrible people and events to draw people to Himself. What about the persecution of the early Church or the destruction of Jerusalem. Now before you get excited don't claim that I am placing the passion in a league with these or other historical events just simply I am stating that God uses many methods to stir people, not just preachers and pulpits. And actually you and I are being about as guilty as Mel when we paint God into a box declaring to him what He can and cannot use.
    Murph
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I hope that my quote in the OP has not been mis-read:

    "My point was to show the extremes to which pragmatic evangelism can be carried. Certainly some will be saved after having their interest sparked by the movie. My point was "does that make it right?"

    I cannot doubt the salvation of those who made professions. What I doubt is the "rightness" of a movie because "it works." That cannot be our standard for something being right or wrong. It would lead to all kinds of wierdness.
     
  17. Glory Bound

    Glory Bound
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just because someone turned to Christ after an event, doesn't mean the event was "good". People have turned to God after great tragedies in their lives ... yet I doubt anyone says the tragedy was good. God caused good to come out of it.
     
  18. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    I've read where there were several "conversion" experiences aboard the doomed Titanic---moments before she slipped to a watery grave----that doesn't mean that God Almighty was the ship's Helmsman that day!
     
  19. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    But what did Isaiah say. It pleased the Lord to bruise Him. God both called the event good and definately caused good to come out of it.
    Murph
     
  20. Glory Bound

    Glory Bound
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
     

Share This Page

Loading...