Are we born Spiritually "alive" or "dead"?

It was back on the last page I outlined the difference between innocent and not guilty. All "have" sinned is past tense, being spoken to adult or those who could understand not only how to read but the concept.

I haven't seen that here at all, in fact I even spoke of the OT atonement being made on behalf of unintentional sin. Christ is the Atonement.

First, already touched on "innocent". Second...yes a newly conceived human is blameless before God. They are under the curse and have been appointed ONCE to die, but spiritually they are blameless. If not, please tell us which sin the newly conceived human committed...just being conceived? The rich young ruler was an adult who HAD sinned...you cannot compare that to a fetus, new born, etc. Believers are blameless before God as well.
You cannot make a Psalm done in poetic language using hyperbole to prove literal truth. It's amazing those two Psalms are always used as the literal proof texts when in each chapter they give different points (from conception as opposed to from birth...which is it?). Paul was speaking to adults who had sinned, not about human condition upon birth.

 

Excellent post! And since Scripture says 'all have sinned,' wouldn't that even include infants? It does not say 'all but infants have sinned, it says all.'

The fact is, all are born sinners.

 

Have sinned is past tense...so please tell us at what point did the infant sin (and told tell me they sinned in Adam, we die in our own trespasses and sins)

 

Theologically speaking, being born into a fallen means that we are born into a fallen state. It's forensic. It's in our blood. We are dead in our sins.

It's not that we keep recreating the fall every time someone commits their first sin. The world is fallen. We're conceived by fallen people and born into a fallen world.

 

I believe we are born into a fallen state, hence physical death and the sin nature and it is part of human nature. Like the rest of our human nature, we will walk and talk at some point due to our nature, but we are not conceived "walkers and talkers".

You said it...we are dead in OUR sins, we are not dead in someone elses. I'm not held accountable for my father's sin, yet I came from him. So upon birth, what sin did the infant commit during those 9 months in the womb?

This doctrine shouldn't be original sin, it should be original guilt.

 

Part of the problem is defining sin as "bad things we do." It's inclusive of that, but early understanding of sin was much more broad. Sin was more of a state; a cosmic reality. It is opposition to God. That's how original sin works. We are guilty in a sinful state, not simply because of the single bad things we might have done.

 

You have a faulty definition of sin. Why not let the Bible define what sin is?

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

It simply is the transgression of God's law either through action, non action or thought...it is not some "cosmic reality"...that sounds like something Oprah would say. :laugh:

 

Webdog, do you have a theological or biblical studies degree? I'm not trying to be accusatory here, just curious.

Actually, biblical scholars talk about a cosmic nature all the time, because the universe is fallen and to be redeemed by Christ.

And picking one verse from the Bible does not on its own give us a definition of sin. It's only part of sin. I'd suggest reading the whole book of Colossians to help with a more cohesive definition of sin. Colossians is a book that deals with the cosmic reality of falleness and redemption. It frequently talks about sin in a singular manner, as one big reality in which the world turns.

 

How is this relevant?

Do you have a list (reformed and non reformed alike)? Biblical scholars can pull proof why we should baptize infants, too. Much is tied to Augustine's view.

Absolutely it gives you THE definition of sin! It's as plain as the nose on your face "sin is breaking God's Law". We witness this early in Genesis when God said "you do this (break my law) you will die". No need for quantum physics to explain our condition, when we do as Adam did, we die as Adam did...so simple a child can understand it!

I've read Colossians countless times and cannot recall anything remotely to a "cosmic sin reality". In fact I googled that phrase and it came up nothing.

 

It's relevant because in any good NT theology course, you would have heard about the fallenness of the universe, or the cosmos. Especially when you get to Colossians, you would have talked about Christ's victory over the singular condition of sin that affects the world.

It would be easier to make a list of who doesn't.

It gives you A definition of sin, dude. You cannot ever, ever just pull verses here and there and patch them together. They have to be taken from the cohesive biblical account. Different authors and their approaches have to be taken into account. Genre has to be taken into account. Yes, sin can be defined as breaking God's law, but it can also, as it is in Colossians, be defined as a singular, universal condition.

Google "colossians" and "cosmic." That should help you out. Also get a decent commentary on the book and read about the background and the people. N.T. Wright is a good place to start. Tyndale has some good commentaries, as well.

 

Why even take the time to respond...if you really weren't going to say anything? I've been schooled on proper hermeneutics. I understand ALL of creation has been affected by sin...that's entirely moot to this discussion.

I've read Colossians numerous times (actually lead a study on the book a few years back), I've used numerous commentaries in doing the study, and can tell you if it was as clear as you make it out to be I wouldn't be asking. Me thinks it's pure eisegesis to come to such a conclusion based on that book of the Bible.

I googled those phrases...and it comes up about Christ...nothing about some cosmic sin conditon.

It is not A definition of sin...it is THE definition of sin. If you don't like that, then it's on you.

 

Here's my actual quote: "Actually, biblical scholars talk about a cosmic nature all the time, because the universe is fallen and to be redeemed by Christ."

Cosmic salvation is needed because of a cosmic state of falleness. It's the sin condition.

I'm not at all saying your definition is incorrect. It is, but it's not an all-inclusive definition. It doesn't systematize everything the Bible has to say about sin. I don't understand why you think I'm just choosing not to believe the Bible because I don't agree with you. I believe in the entire of the biblical account.

You can't just "supply" scripture like that to prove the point you want to make.

 

I am not the One who told Paul to write that "all have sinned." Ask God at what point an infant sinned, it is His Word that declares it.

 

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

Does this cover a one minute old baby? That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.

 

Soul sinneth

So we know that a flesh of a baby is conceived in sin and iniquity, what about his soul? We also know that the soul that sinneth is the soul that dies?

 

Be careful....you are almost drifting into the gnostic philosophy seperating body and soul...good and evil

 

You have taken poetic figurative language and applied it as literal truth. If you are going literal here, are we truly cleansed with hyssop and have you heard crushed bones rejoice?

 

No he isn't. Noting that we die physically and not spiritually is also gnostic?

 

I'm asking you, you should be able to support your beliefs from Scripture. Paul said "have sinned" (past), so surely you can tell me at what point in time the 30 second old newly conceived human committed sin.

I don't have to ask God at what point an infant transgressed His law...they haven't, it's quite a simple concept. I'm amazed so many believers today hold so tight to a Roman Catholic false doctrine!