Are we born spiritually dead?

There you have it; I guess arguing with yourself does pay off

Sin gives birth to death...hummm

Man is born with a sin nature...hummm

Man is born...spiritually dead....Amen

Bro. Dallas

 

Absolutly not. Why? The words in greek are different.

James 1 uses the word thanaton (Death; be struck a deadly blow; leading to death; near death; in danger of death) </font>[/QUOTE]That's not what I found: Here is the definiations from several lexicons:

1) the death of the body

a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended

b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell

1) the power of death

c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin

2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,

a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell

4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

The most conclusive evidence that your intepretation is wrong is the fact that the greek word "thanaton" is used in Rom. 5:21 which I'm sure you would say means "spiritual death" that comes from the imputation of Adam's sin.

Nekros:
1) properly

a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless

b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell

c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.

a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right

b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

Now, Angel you contradict your own reasoning. You say that each have there own range of useage. I believe both of these words are are used in reference to Jesus' death. Does that mean that neither of these words can be used metaphorically or as analogies? Just like in our English language we have the words "dead" and "deceased." Either one of these words can be used metaphorically or as an analogy to help people gain a understanding of some point.

Your speaking as an authority on the greek language, as if you are absolutely certain that "Nekros" can be used in anyother context except literally being "dead."

Do you stand by that testimony or do I need to prove it wrong?

God Bless. </font>[/QUOTE]I never claimed to be a greek authority. I simply said that the two words that you were comparing were different words.

My arguement against your arguement of analogy was not based on the greek. It was however, based on the idea that death is not used as an analogy. You want to apply the analogy to Eph. 2:1. However, the range of this word (Nekros, in this case) is not used as an analogy in the other uses.

I'm sorry if I confused you.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

Who does the tempting? That's the question James is asking and answering here. According to your system its God, for he is the one who imputes death to all because of one mans sin causing all to sin. James says God doesn't even tempt man to sin, your system asserts that he is the cause of it. That is a contradiction.</font>[/QUOTE]I have to say this one is for the refrigerator.

What I said: Unbelievers live by their desires, are slaves to them, and are already dead.

Your analysis: Who does the tempting? That's the question James is asking and answering here. According to your system its God, for he is the one who imputes death to all because of one mans sin causing all to sin.

So, when I say that unbelievers live by their desires and are already dead, you counter it with the assertion that God must therefore tempt people because He imputed death to all as a result of Adam's sin. Can you tell me what hallucinogenics I have to take in order to see how your assertion makes any sense, and what possible connection it has to my statement or James?

 

Bro. Bill,

Would you agree that a man who as outwardly as we can tell, being born with a sin nature, yet living carefully and morally all of his life, will yet die?

Bro. Dallas

 

in the one you live the world, in the other you are granted by the Grace of God, a life in this world.

I do not understand your question...sorry.

The Bible says when we are saved we pass from death to life. I guess this is enough for me to know that an unregenerated individual is spiritually dead until life is granted.

If you can explain your question (not better) but to where I can understand maybe I can help...maybe not...but I will try.

Bro. Dallas

 

Bill,

I think so. Here is why: Thanatos (death)
-every form of it in the NT treated not as a natural process but always as a destroying power related to sin and its consequences; (1) physically, as the separation of soul fr. body (physical) death (JN 11.13); (2) as a legal t.t., of capital punishment (physical) death (MT 26.66); (3) spiritually, as the separation of soul fr. God (opp. zwh,v (spiritual) death (JN 5.24; JA 1.15); (4) spiritually, as the separation of soul fr. spirit, or fr. the possibility of knowing God, as the result of judgment (eternal) death (RO 1.32); called the second death in RV 2.11; 20.6 et al; (5) by meton. deadly disease, pestilence (RV 6.8).

Ok, as you might imagine, that is not my work. This is from a lexicon....it begins with an "F" but the name escapes me because...DUH...I forgot to write it down.

Here is what Louw and Nida say about one of the uses of Nekros (I'm placing this here to defend the spiritual inability spoken of in Eph. 2:1):
-Nekrosertaining to being unable to respond to any impulse or to perform some function - 'unable, ineffective, dead, powerless

and

'we who were dead because of our sins, (God) brought to life through Christ' Eph 2.5. Since the reference in Eph 2.5 (see also Eph 2.1) is to matters relating to God, one may translate 'we who were unable to respond to matters relating to God because of our sins ...' or 'we who were spiritually dead ...'

Now, I don't know about you but I think that this closes the case. If nekros is used, it would seem that it is intentionally not used as an analogy (UNLESS the word "Like" or somehting else similar is used in conjuction with it).

It would seem that thanatos is much more apt to be used as the figurative sense of the word "death" because it is used to speak, not of a literal death, but as a destroying power related to sin and its consequences.

Similarly, nekros is also used as "Dead," "Useless," or "Ineffective." So, the interpretation of Eph 2:1ff is right-on when arguing total depravity/total inability.

Eph. 2:1 is teaching that we are totally unable to respond to the Gospel without being first regenerated.

Have a good night!

Blessings,

Archangel