Are we followers or believers???

Sue--time is catchin' up with me for Wednesday Bible Study--so I'll make this my first point!

Moses was directed by God to go back to Egypt--"And I will go with thee" "I will go before thee"

If you scan real quick the fourth chapter of Exodus---before he actually returns to Egypt---he goes back to bid Jethro goodbye!!---so it isn't like he goes straight from his "Burning Bush" back to Egypt! He goes back and gets Zipporah and his children---and then he returns taking them with him!

So following God to Egypt---doesn't imply going "stiff necked" and "forsaking the funeral" and stuff--but it does imply---loving the God you are following more than your own life---and a death to self---when Moses walked into Pharoah's office---he was a "Dead Man Walkin'!!"

 

Sue,
I heard a sermon on the subject of the man wanting to bury his father before he followed Jesus..... the preacher said that as Jesus knows the hearts of men that it may have been that He knew that the mans father was not/ not going to be saved. Hence the Lords reply "let the dead bury their dead". `Dead` refering to spiritually dead rather than physically dead.
I pray that I would follow Him before all other `duties`, but would have a lot of difficulty with the decisions you refer to..... however He will not allow us to be tested more than we can bear.
Gwyneth

 

Sue, it is just that Paul disagrees with your assessment of the christian life.

Consider Romans 8:14. If all saved people are led by the Spirit, then how exactly do we go backwards? Are you stronger than God?

 

Dr. Bob Griffin wrote:

With all due respect, Dr. Bob, I am not now nor have I ever been a follower of O’Hare or Stam or Bullinger or the other hyper-dispensationalists.

I am a King James Bible Believing, Soul-Winning, Independent Baptist.

I do read my KJV and believe it, as written.

The verses I quoted from Paul were given by inspiration, were they not?

I could have given 9 more verses in the same vein from Paul.

Since Paul tells us 12 times in his 14 epistles to follow him, God must intend us to follow Paul, as he followed Jesus, rather than simply following Jesus like the Jewish apostles followed Jesus.

To say my doctrine is false and heresy is to falsely accuse me. I believe in baptism by immersion in water for believers in this dispensation of grace.

The hyperdispensationalists don’t.

So, I am not a hyper disp. but I have enough sense to rightly divide the word.

I’m not a charismatic chasing after signs, wonders and healing. Charismatics get messed up because they live in the gospels and Acts, virtually ignoring the special revelation given to Paul.

You don’t follow Jesus like the apostles followed Jesus and neither do other believers today - Matthew 10.

When was the last time you cleansed a leper? (10:8)

How many devils have you cast out? (10:8)

Is your message “The kingdom of heaven is at hand”? (10:7)

Do you obey Jesus’ command “Go not into the way of the Gentiles”? (10:5)

Do you refrain from taking any money with you when you go on a preaching trip? (10:9)

That’s the point I was making. There is a difference between following Jesus like the apostles followed Jesus when their ministry was directed only to Israel and not to the Gentiles.

So to answer the question: Are we followers or believers?

We are believers but we are not first-century Jews following a Jewish Messiah in his earthly ministry to Israel.

At the present time, Israel has been "cast away" (Rom 11:15) and "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Rom 11:25)

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and we are Gentiles, so, agree or not, our scriptural instructions are to follow Paul as he followed Jesus.

 

Ya know, I did a bit of digging on this very topic in Bible college. There's something lacking from this verse, and that is the context of the time. The man was invited to follow Jesus, but the man said he had to bury his father first. We assume that the man's father is dead. That's where we err. The custom of the time is for the sons to take care of their parents when they are elderly. This man's father was still ALIVE, and it befell the son to provide for his father until he was buried. Jesus' saying to the man was somewhat of a figure of speech. He was telling the man to stop finding excuses (I want to follow you, but I have this and that and this and that to do first). Notice, that by biblical example, it also befell Jesus to take care of his elderly widowed mother (which he did), but he did not let that prevent him from fulfilling his calling. He was telling the man to do as he did.

 

Sue, this discussion will take us off track, but it is obvious you haven't thought through what you just said.

If the Holy Spirit is leading you, and you aren't stronger than God, how exactly do you go backwards? What, are you on a bungee cord?

[ February 05, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

Daniel David I agree that the discussion would carry us astray of this thread but I am interested in your claim below and I would like you to make your point about this in a new thread. Please consider it.
Murph

Discipleship is never divorced from salvation. Backsliding is not possible for Christians. I know this opens up a whole 'nother realm of theology that most people are uncomfortable with, but it is still true nonetheless.

 

I disagree. I reiterate my previous post:

Here's a test: Everyone on this board who has ever backslidden, look at the dot below:

-------> ● <-------


See? You're all backsliders!!!

 

Oops! You're right. Sorry 'bout that, CSM.

 

John, that is a very compelling argument. Lemme try one.

If you read any of this thread, that means you don't believe Christians can backslide.

Thanks for teaching us the effective debating skills.

 

Well, since the Bible says taht all are sinners, and that all have sinned and fall short, and since Paul freely admits to being the chief of all sinners, I dare say that the Bible contradicts your assertion that Christians do not backslide. Backsliding is in our nature. Yet when we realize our errors, and return to where we were, we find that God have never left us. Jesus exemplifies this with his parable of the Prodigal Son.

Who among us has never been a prodigal? Certainly not I.

 

Hi Sue, Your post and questions brought back some memories that I will share with you.

These three events happened when I was a believer. I am still a believer .

About 1982 my father's mother passed away. I was asked to be a pallbearer at her funeral. I hesitated not, got on a plane and did it. My grandmother had actually made the request that I be there, while she was alive. I did an honorable thing.

Then about 1985 my mother's father passed away. The leadership of my Church at the time intimidated me HEAVELY and I did not go to the funeral. This is a long story. Nevertheless, I did damage, missed my dear grandfather's funeral and I regret it. That is the church I mentioned in the "church or cult" thread. I left that church 20 years ago.
That is why I responded in my initial post to you. Was it man or God that instructed me to avoid my parents in their time of grief? It was sincere, religious men. Nevertheless, it was all my fault and my indiscretion. I am to blame and I did a dishonorable thing.

Then about 2001 my mother's mother passed away. I did not hesitate this time. I was even asked to speak before the assembly and I wrote an epitaph that brought my mother to tears at the service. I did an honorable thing.

I love my parents and I strive more than ever to honor them in everything. But this is because of the Lord and his Apostle's teachings. I am led to do these things because of the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures. I feel that if I am led by something then I am a follower of that thing. I am still unable to separate the two terms.

Just sharing.

Dave

 

I believe there is a difference. I also believe that the overwhelming majority of Christians would say that they believe and follow. The percentage of those who believe and are true followers is quite small IMO.

The Word of God is full of exhortations to Christians to maintain a proper relationship with God.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

So, it is possible for the Christian to love the world more than he/she loves God. How many Christians spent last Sunday evening with their TV watching the Superbowl instead of with God and His children at church?

A good example of being a believer and not a follower is Jospeh of Arimathaea.
John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews , besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

Consider this example as well:
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him , lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

I do not think it is so much a matter of backslidding (which I believe is very possible and highly probable for each of us) but is more a matter of committment. Just how far are you willing to take this relationship with the Lord? It is obvious that He wants to take it all the way; the shortcoming is always on our part.

To say that He must be Lord of all or He's not Lord at all sounds like Lordship salvation to me.

 

I sense that I am a follower by nature. The old nature is a follower and the new nature is a follower. IMhO, it seems that neither of the two can stand on its own. I may be a leader of millions of men, but I am ultimately following someone or something. My hope is that it is the Spirit of God. And if not always, then in an increasing amount.

So I still see no difference. If I don't believe in the one whom God hath sent then I will follow darkness. If I believe in the one whom he hath sent then I will follow the light.

Just thinking...

Dave

 

I follow those who follow Christ. I belive in Christ much more than I could ever believe in people. People will fail you and let you down, they're human. Christ even in His humanity never failed, never let anyone down that had righteous and reasonable expectations of Him.

When I can find no one following Christ, I will still follow Him. Our following Christ is along side of other followers, not in subsequent order or according to spirituality or knowledge.

I'm afraid people want followers of them, who yet are not really followers of Christ.That is what I mean by following alongside.

I Corinthians 3:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

4:1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

11:1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Brother Maze Jackson said, "Don't call me reverend, there's not but One Reverend, that is the Lord!"

The Apostle Paul also is suggesting unity through out I Corinthians.

Rbrent, I understand fully what you are saying and I agree. Paul finished his course, and never would have desired we leave Jesus aside and follow him alone. We are not able to physically follow Christ, neither Paul, and if we try to follow some one today as close as we ought to follow the teachings of Jesus we would have to follow them to the bathroom, and I don't think anyone, in their right mind, would want us following them that close!

 

Just marking this to read it later. Looks interesting, Sue!