Are we living under the New Covenant??

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Oct 27, 2007.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Hebrew 8:
    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
     
  2. canadyjd

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    yes

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Thank you, why do some say the Messiah is still to come to Israel??? I can't find in this ""new covenant" He was going to give it to them twice and put His Laws in their heart and mind twice??
     
    #3 Brother Bob, Oct 27, 2007
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  4. canadyjd

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    Romans 11 especially v.25-26.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    When would you say the "fullness" of the Gentiles is. When the very last Gentile is saved, or when they were accepted into the Covenant??

    Rom 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
     
  6. canadyjd

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    There appears to be a cause and effect at work here. "When" that occurs, I don't know. Israel is "blinded" to the truth about Messiah Jesus. When the fulness of the Gentiles occurs, that blindness will be lifted and all Israel will be saved.

    The question of many is how does the salvation of Israel occur? Some maintain the Old Covenant will still be in place for Israel. I do not believe that. I believe there will be a widespread acceptance of Jesus as Messiah among the Jewish people. They will be saved just like the Gentiles are.

    I believe the "all Israel will be saved" refers to joining of both groups (Jews and Gentiles) into one "Israel" (one who strives with God) under the new covenant of grace.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    According to scriptue the covenant has already come to Israel and only a part of them were broken off that the gentiles might be grafted in. They have already come to be known as Judah, for all of Israel now are called Jews. I believe that any Jew, who will believe in Christ, NOW, will be accepted with Him. Don't you??

    Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; If some were broken off, then they already have the New Covenant.

    I believe the "fullness of the Gentiles" is when they were all converted to accept the Gentiles as worthy to be children of God.

    We must remember that all Isreal is not Israel.

    God put a "condition" for the part of Israel that was broken off, because of "unbelief"., to be grafted back in, and that was they "must" believe. Well, that is true with the whole world, whether you are Jew or Greek.

    Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Oct 27, 2007
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  8. TCGreek

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    1. Certainly! Paul says that we have been made competent ministers of the New Covenant.

    2. But is every aspect of the NC realized? Not at all!
     
  9. LeBuick

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    Interesting statement, can you expound a bit?


    Also, I'm not arguing against your point because I believe God promised a Messiah, He sent His Son the Messiah and as you quoted, some who he came to save received him not. Hebrews 11 makes an interesting twist. We see some saved having never received the actual Messiah, strictly because of their faith. Their faith was counted as righteousness. Was this exception only possible before the coming of Christ?
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Well, the scripture does not say the New Covenant will be made with the Gentiles, but to Israel. If Israel already has the New Covenant, with His Laws in their hearts and minds and are saved if this be so, then why do some on here say that the Covenant is yet to come to Israel and Dan is yet to be fulfilled.

    I ask once before if Israel could be saved now, and the answer I got was they could be saved individual, but the nation of Israel was still waiting to be received in. I can't see how that can be true at all, for if the New Covenant is here, it first come to the Nation of Israel and the Gentiles were grafted in, because of the unbelief of some, for scripture says that Israel was broken off in part, so as to bring in the Gentiles, until the fullness of the Gentiles come.

    I don't think anyone can say that the Covenant is still to come to Israel, if they have already received it. Now the part that was broken off, may be grafted back in, but they have to do something for that to happen. They have to "believe". That is the same thing the whole world has to do, so what makes the grafting of Israel back in, any different than receiving anyone who will "believe"?

    BBob,
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    Seems to me, it has to be the ones who perished before the coming of Christ, but died in faith, therefore the fountain that was opened when Christ died, flowed to cover them also.

    Scripture says now, "except ye believe, ye shall all likewise perish".

    Also, it is a fact that all of Israel that has returned to Jerusalem and Israel, dropped the name of their tribe and took up the name of Judah. (Jews)

    Hbr 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


    BBob,
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Oct 28, 2007
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  12. HankD

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    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

    While Israel was restored as a nation in 1947 the city of Jerusalem is still "trodden down" in that (to the chagrin of every religious practitioner of Talmudic Judaism) the Temple site is has no Temple - the heart of Biblical Judaism - standing with sacrifices being made daily, neither can it be built for several reasons.

    As far as religious Jews are concerned Arabs and/or Moslems are gentiles ("a goy is a goy", as one of them told me).

    Temple-less Jerusalem is an agonizing fact that religious Jews face daily.

    What then did Jesus mean and why did He single out Jerusalem if not because of the destruction of the Temple?

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.​
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

    As for the New Covenant, yes we have entered into it. It was offered to the Jew first, refused at the first and therefore offered to the gentiles who received it. ​

    When the fulness of the gentiles is complete, then the blindness of Israel will be lifted and Israel as a nation will endter into the New Covenant.​

    We don't know when...

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    But it will happen​

    Zechariah 12
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.​


    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

    Jeremaiah 33
    7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
    8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.
    9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

    HankD​
     
    #12 HankD, Oct 28, 2007
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  13. Brother Bob

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    Christ is the temple, "you tear down this temple and I will raise it up again it three days.

    It says Israel was blinded in " part".

    Isa 49:6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    Rom 11:11¶I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Jer 31:31¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    If we are under the New Covenant, then it has already come to Israel.

    I say again: God put a condition on whether Israel would be grafted back in.

    Rom 11:23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

    That same condition is the same one that applies to all men.


    Hbr 12:24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
     
  14. HankD

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    Well Brother Bob all that has been proven is that it's a matter of interpretation and which verses one wants to use to "spiritualize" those passages which I cited.

    HankD
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    I agree, I don't claim to have all the answers, but do see a problem with whether the Covenant is already made with Israel, or is it to come? According to the following passage, it already has come.

    Hbr 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.




    Bro HankD;
    Could you tell me the difference in the unsaved of Judah being saved and the unsaved as a whole being saved, being that both "must believe"???

    I understand what you are saying, but have you ever given thought that salvation has already come to Israel, being that He put His laws in their hearts and minds, and the Covenant has already come to them, and the remnant are in the same boat as all the lost, they must believe???
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Oct 28, 2007
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  16. LeBuick

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    I believe the covenant is being fulfilled with Israel. As Jesus sat amongst Jews (soon to be Christians) observing the Jewish Passover feast;

    Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mk 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

    Lk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

    What I am unsure of is if the complete promise and new covenant have completely come to light? I preface that as I approach Rom 11:39 …since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

    This tells me that what God promised Israel will never be withdrawn by God. God is not an “Indian” giver and will not take back any covenant he has made with Israel. We are all “banking” if you will on God’s faithfulness to keep his promises. This only speaks for God when a covenant is clearly a two way agreement, my question is what if we reject the fulfillment of God’s promise? Is He still obligated to keep fulfilling the promise in different ways until Israel finds one to their likings?

    So God’s promise is irrevocable (Rom 11:29) yet Israel rejects the fulfillment. I don’t think the Church has replaced Israel but I do think we need to pray Israel comes to a saving knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who was sent as the fulfillment of many promises God made with their forefathers. So the question of this thread, does God has another card up His sleeve for Israel? Now that question falls to the mysteries of the ages.

    Jer 31:33 (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
     
  17. TCGreek

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    1. Yes, the NC was with Israel according to Jer 31, but I believe the Gentiles were included as beneficiaries, because the blood of the NC was for all mankind, so that is why God is taking a people from among the Gentiles (Acts 15:14).

    2. But I believe that the fullness of the NC will be realized in the MK.

    3. According to the witness of Scripture only individual Israelites are being saved.

    4. But Scripture says that God, after taking a people from among the Gentiles, He's going to turn to the Israelites as a whole (Acts 15:14ff; Rom 11:25-32). A temporary is now on Israel according to Paul until the fullness of the Gentiles. How else should we understand those Scriptures?

    5. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will remove the partial hardening and Israel will believe and be saved. This is the witness of Scripture.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    I agree, the church is not twain but one, both Jew and Greek.

    BBob,
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    This to me, it the mystery. When is the fulness of the Gentiles??? Does anyone have scripture to support a certain time??
     
  20. TCGreek

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    According to both Acts 15:14-18 and Romans 11:25-32, God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, and in respect to Israel, God is going to raise up the Davidic Throne and Rebuild the ruins--this to me points to the millennial kingdom, because both the fullness of the Gentiles and the fact that Israel have not been restore have not been fulfilled.
     

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