Are we really to Judge a person's salvation?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    Does God REALLY give us the authority to judge a person's salvation?

    People here have gone as far as calling Dr. Billy Graham as possibly being Satan. (really) Is THIS right?

    Is this what a Christian is supposed to do? :confused:
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    No.

    And I question the salvation of anyone who does! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  3. michelle

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    Yes. WE most certainly are, and can, and are commanded to do:


    Matt 7

    13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    Gal. 1

    6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.


    Matth 24

    4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


    Luke 6

    35. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
    36. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
    37. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
    38. Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
    39. And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
    40. The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
    41. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    42. Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
    43. For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    44. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
    45. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
    46. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
    47. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
    48. He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
    49. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


    John 7

    23. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
    24. Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


    1 Thess. 5

    14. Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
    15. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
    16. Rejoice evermore.
    17. Pray without ceasing.
    18. In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
    19. Quench not the Spirit.
    20. Despise not prophesyings.
    21. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    22. Abstain from all appearance of evil.
    23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    24. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

    2 Cor. 6

    11. O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
    12. Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
    13. Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
    14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
    16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
    18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


    2 Corinthians 11

    1. Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
    2. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
    3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
    5. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
    6. But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
    7. Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
    8. I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
    9. And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
    10. As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
    11. Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
    12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
    13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


    2 Timothy 3

    1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
    9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
    10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
    11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
    12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Titus 2

    7. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
    8. Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
    9. Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
    10. Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
    11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    15. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


    2 Peter 2

    1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


    1 John 4

    1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
    5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
    6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    10. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
    12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
    13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
    14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    16. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    17. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
    18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    19. We love him, because he first loved us.
    20. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    21. And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


    This is but a small sample that we are to judge all things and people. How? By the scriptures themselves and their by their fruits. We know them also by the Spirit and love. If a man does not show forth love of the bretheren, this is a bad fruit. Those that would not care for the sheep and send them off to be discipled by those who preach and teach a false gospel and a false christ (which is accursed by God) manifest that they have no love for God, Jesus Christ and others. Those who claim all religions worship the same God, have not a love for not only God, but others also. Do not confuse worldly love for Godly love. Those who love God hate all evil. If we can make a judgement on those who are obviously not saved, by the scriptural truths, we also can and must with those that claim the name of Christ - otherwise we are found to be hypocrates. The serpent is subtle, not obvious. Satan worshippers are obvious, but not all satan worshipper manifest themselves as obvious. We are commanded not to let any man deceive us. The only way one can be kept from deception, is by judging righteous judgement, and being able to make this determination. Otherwise we would all be left to believe every wind of doctrine, and follow every man. Do not tell me and others we are not to know this, when the scriptures clearly command us to judge and know this. We are not to believe someone just because they say are. Jesus said not only that by their fruits you shall know them, but the blind who follow the blind, will both fall into the ditch.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  4. AVL1984

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    I do, too. I find nowhere in the Bible where we are commanded to judge anyones salvation. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  5. AVL1984

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    Michelle, these verses are taken out of context to fit your need to be right. Nowhere does it say that we are to judge a person's salvation. Again, you've put yourself in the place of God. You DO NOT KNOW these men's hearts, nor do you care about knowing. Both have a strong testimony of salvation. Brother Graham's ministry has touched many people, and many have been saved because of his preaching a clear salvation message. He may not be doctrinally correct in many areas, but he is saved, as is the President, contrary to your own OPINION.
     
  6. Phillip

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    Okay, let's assume that the way she is using this in context is right.

    She is teaching the false doctrine of KJVonlyism. Therefore, does this apply to her?
     
  7. Phillip

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    I have NEVER heard Billy Graham preach a false doctrine of salvation. Has anyone on this board?

    Now, if he makes a mistake with a lesser doctrine, does that make him a false prophet?

    Does this mean I would be a false prophet if I did not believe in, for instance; the rapture will occur before, instead of in the middle of the tribulation?
     
  8. Phillip

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    Luke 6

    35. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
    36. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
    37. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

    That was your quote Michelle, is that how you feel when you talk about Billy Graham? When you say that he actually might be Satan?
     
  9. AVL1984

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    I don't recall ever hearing Billy Graham preach a false doctrine on Salvation. Now if people preach differently or believe differently on things that are "lesser" doctrines, I surely wouldn't break fellowship with them. There are many areas where people can agree to disagree. JRR was a good example of someone doing that.
     
  10. Phillip

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    AVL1984, maybe my brain is warped today, but its like a face you can't put a name to. JRR? :confused:
     
  11. AVL1984

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    John R Rice
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    Was Peter unsaved ? One minute the Lord calls Him blessed, and less than a minute after that, the Lord called Him Satan (Matthew 16:17-23).

    Did Paul say Alexander the coppersmith was going to burn in hell ? (2 Tim 4:14).

    Those who question the salvation of anyone probably have no idea what salvation is all about. Their yardstick will more often than not some action they have done sometime somewhere and think their salvation depended on their response or decisions.

    Billy Graham is a false prophet, but his eternal salvation is something else.
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Only the Holy Spirit can judge slavation - NO ONE else.

    Unless there is a sinless person on this board?
     
  14. GrannyGumbo

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    As I understand it, Graham compromises with the Catholics. How can two walk together except they be agreed? The Bible has plenty to say about false prophets!

    SisMichelle is not teaching a false doctrine of KJVonlyism, but there sure seems to be plenty of false love for that blessed old Book.

    And George Bush a christian? Then why did he bow to the idol at a Shinto shrine in Japan or appoint numerous known sodomites to official positions? Why did he allow celebration of Ramadan, the Islamic fast, in the White House or say Allah & God are equal? Why did he invite satanist Ozzy Osborne to a party and why has he not abolished baby murdering?

    Is it right to judge? You bet'cha! The Scripture commands us to judge.

    How ya doing, Phillip? It's good to see you again! :D
     
  15. Phillip

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    I agree C4K. The verses above, listed by Michelle are to warn us against listening to someone who teaches a false salvation doctrine.

    Also, it talks about prophets. Before Jesus' time there were real prophets that told the future (Ezekiel, John). A false prophet was anyone who was wrong. A true prophet was never wrong.

    But, to say a person is unsaved, we just may not know.

    I could go to a nursing home right this very minute and listen to a man that I know sit in his wheelchair and cuss me out when I look at him. Is he saved? Yes, I believe he is. He was a pastor and nobody who knows him has ever heard him curse before he got alzheimer's syndrome.

    If I were to judge this man, I would most likely be wrong.

    Only God knows the heart.

    When we are judging the fruits, we are judging whether or not we FOLLOW that person as a spiritual leader or pastor, NOT what his personal relationship with Christ Jesus is.

    He could BE possessed by an evil spirit, but that is certainly not for us to decide.

    If you will notice, Paul was preaching to churches, telling them how to select leaders, admonishing the church to not accept members that were wallowing in on-going major sins. He was setting guidelines for the church.

    Jesus was the only person in the Bible who really called the shots and told people whether or not they were saved. Did He have a right to? Sure, He's GOD!
     
  16. Marcia

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    We can't judge someone's salvation but we are to judge their teachings. The Matthew 7 passage is about false teachers/prophets, and we are to judge the teachings based on the standard of the Bible.

    In the case of teachings and doctrines, I consider the person's salvation to be a side issue between them and God. We are to notice and evaluate the teachings because that is what affects us and the church (and unbelievers).
     
  17. Phillip

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    Hi Granny, ya back to play rockem-sockem I see. :D

    How are you?
     
  18. AVL1984

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    Glad to see you GG. Now, one reason GW Bush has done much of what he's done is because being president he HAS to be a diplomat. He cannot just represent some of the people, whether we like or agree with it or not. I personally wouldn't want his job.

    Mr. Bush CANNOT abolish baby murdering, GG, and if you have any constitutional knowledge, you know this already.

    Concerning Billy Graham, his salvation is clear. His theology is not in all areas. But that's between him and God. Many have confronted him about MANY things, yet he has taken the ecumenical position. It was a mistake on his part, but doesn't negate his salvation.

    As for KJVo'ism, you know where I stand on it.

    Again, glad to see you back. [​IMG]
     
  19. Phillip

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    Well said, Marcia! [​IMG]

    I have never met a pastor or evangelist who does not sin. If someone knows one would you send them my way?
     
  20. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Welcome back Granny [​IMG] .

    I strongly disagree on judging another's salvation. Only a perfect Christian could do that.
     

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