Are we really to Judge a person's salvation?

I thought that was clear by my response!

I'd be a dummy to think otherwise.

 

Does it count if you only wear a bowtie when you wear a tux? If you only wear a bowtie when you wear a tux, does it mean you can lose your salvation or does it mean only the part that wears the bowtie is saved?

 

Matthew 7:15-20 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."

Are false prophets saved? Does Scripture speak of a teacher of damnable heresy as a child of God? I would say no. Could they be saved? Of course, no one is beyond the reach of God's grace, but the question is: ARE they PRESENTLY saved? No, they are not.

Christ tells us that we will know them - false prophets - by their fruit. Then, however, he widens the application, saying EVERY good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. Indeed, He tells us, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." In the end, He sums up, saying, "So then, you will know them by their fruits." Who is "them"? The false prophets? The good/bad trees? I would argue the latter simply because He seems to be moving from a smaller to a larger application here. You will know the false prophets by their fruits; and you will know the good/bad trees by their fruits also. The tree, of course, is a metaphor for a person: every person that does not bear good fruit will be thrown into the fire. This is not salvation by works, as the fruit spoken of here is the fruit that comes from grace, indeed, the fruit of the Spirit (but, honestly, that is another discussion at this point...we are talking about judging another's salvation).

So, if a tree is known by its fruit, then it stands to reason that a Christian is known by his. Does a person manifest a godly, Christian lifestyle? Note I said lifestyle - this implies that we look at the overall life of the person, not isolated incidents - we all continue to sin, yet our lives should not be marked by such, but rather marked by increasing holiness. Is the fruit of the Spirit evident in them: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control? If not, and we know a tree by its fruit, why call them a Christian? I would not look upon a tree with oranges on it and call it an apple tree. Why would I look upon a person, see that they do not manifest in any part of their life anything remotely resembling godliness, and call them a Christian? Because they go to church? Because they walked an aisle 30 years ago?

This is not being judgmental, nor is it playing God. It is a humble recognition that someone is not what God says a Christian should be. I say humble because, without God's grace, that would be me or you or any one of us. It is not, "Ha, ha, I am better than you." It is, "My friend, it breaks my heart to tell you that you are not a Christian; I pray that you will see this and see your need for a savior; flee your sin and run into the saving arms of Christ."

From a pastoral standpoint, would you assure someone of their salvation who never reads their Bible, never prays, never goes to church, never shows love for the brethren or their neighbor, never manifests any bit of the love of God in them, yet who prayed the so-called sinner's prayer at some point in their life? I hope not! To utilize the sentiment of Hosea: God delights in loyalty rather than heartless prayers, and in the knowledge of God rather than the walking of aisles.

We are to call sinners to repentance and faith in Christ; once they have done that, we are to help them along their journey. We are not to reassure hell-bound sinners that they are doing alright. The former is like a beggar telling other beggars where the food is; the latter is like a beggar telling other beggars that they really are not hungry and to forget about the food because they do not need it.

If we carried out the idea that we cannot judge anyone else's salvation to its logical conclusion, then we cannot say to a Muslim that he is unsaved. Who are we to judge his salvation? He "believes" in Jesus, right? He believes that Jesus was a prophet. Who are we to tell him that he is wrong?

Lon

 

So Lon,

How "bad" does a person have to be to be judged as lost?

If they don't come the church on Wednesday night? If they are not pre-millinial? If they have a social drink? If they go to a liberal Methodist church? If they don't dress according to a prescribed standard? How does one KNOW the heart of a professing beleiver? If one gets angry without cause? How about if one abuses his body through overeating? How about if one purposefully, willingly, regularly, disregards God divinly ordained governmental authority by speeding?

Your analogy of not judging a Muslim is flawed because we are discussion professing Christians here.

 

What we as Christians don't have the right to do is "condemn" others to Hell. That is God's right alone.

"Judge not that ye be not judged" is in reference to condemning others.

We are told to discern the "fruit" of others. We are called to distinguish between walking in the Spirit and living in the flesh. We are commanded to expel the immoral brother. But we are never given the responsibility to "condemn."

Remove from fellowship. Yes.
Condemn to Hell. No.

 

There is a distinction between teaching something in error and being a false prophet.

True prophets (pastor/teachers) are not infallible.

False prophets by definition are "false" and thus not saved.

 

True prophets may teach something wrongly and still be saved.

False prophets may teach some things correctly and still be lost.

 

C4K,

Should we, then, assure everyone who says that they believe in Christ (regardless of how they are living) that they are saved?

"Your analogy of not judging a Muslim is flawed because we are discussion professing Christians here."

You missed the point. I said that if the position "you cannot judge anyone's salvation" is taken to its logical extreme (Reductio ad absurdum) then we cannot make any judgment even upon a Muslim's salvation.

I said that we should take note of a person's lifestyle, their whole walk of life. This means more than observing their church-going habits. It means more than seeing what sort of drinks they order. It means more than what is on their menu or what speed they drive on the freeway. It involves getting to know the person, seeing if there is any fruit in their lives. If not, I see no reason for calling them a Christian.

A good tree has good fruit. A bad tree has bad fruit. It comes from the root. If the root is good, there is good fruit. If the root is bad, there is bad fruit. You know the root (the heart) by looking at the fruit.

To use another analogy (though the first one - the tree metaphor - is probably still the best): If I say that I love my wife, yet I never speak to her, never do anything for her, never spend any significant time with her, never show in any way that I actually do love her, would you say, "Well, you said that you do, so I believe you"? It is the same with people and their relationship to God. I can say all day long that I love God, but if I never spend any time with Him, never speak to Him, never let Him speak to me, never obey His commands, never do anything that would even begin to show that I love Him, then you would be doing me a grave disservice in telling me that I am a Christian.

By the way, Paul33, your distinction is very helpful.

Lon

 

good day sirs!

Let us separate the dicussion from judging the salvation of our brothers against judging someone who do not really believe in God...

As the topic says.... "are we really to judge anothers person's salvation?"

meaning when we say another person's salvation in this forum i presume that we are talking of someone like a brother and not of someone who is not of faith at the least possible case...

 

PS

If we have to ask some... "Do you believe that Jesus christ is the Son of God who died for your sins, buried and was raised up on the 3rd day"?

If that person answers you in a definite negative notion and does not open his heart to fully understand the gospel and refuses to listen... we can, as well say, that someday he will end up in hell...

but to a person who have received Christ as his Lord and Saviour, definitely we cannot judge him... whether he is really saved or not... but we can always presume that he is as God leadeth us to look onto someone else's life in the church or in a Christina community... that is why it is said that we are not only members of the Body but also members of one another...

Let us not therefore judge the salvation of of our brothers of whom we have felt that have fallen but instead exhort them to come back in the fold...

God Bless!

 

Lon,

I basically agree with this analogy. I fully accept that true faith does produce good works. That still does not give me the right to look at a group of people and say, "You, you, and you are saved. You, you, you, and you are lost." Their lives certainly do reflect their spiritual standing. Yet, my question remains, how fruitless does a person have to be for one to decided if they are lost? How fruitful must one be for me to decide they are saved? How much do we take in to account spiritual growth and their how long they have been saved? Just where do we draw the line? We can never be certain of another's salvation, or lack of it.

I agree, if someone tells me that they are saved and never do anything to back it up in the life, then I can say, "That person is probably not saved," but I cannot be certain, and I would be wrong to tell others that that person is not saved. As a pastor and missionary I would be well advised to talk to that person about their walk and help them re-examine their salvation "experience."

There is far too much "1,2,3 pray after me" evangalsim which leads folks to a false hope, and we must love enough to help people see that they may be depending on a prayer.

Earlier in this thread some were saying that "so and so politician" and "so and so evangelist" were not saved, in spite of the fact that both have or are showing some fruit. Both have erred and even made some very unwise statements, but to determne their eternal fate? This type of judgement is what I am opposed to.

I am really thankful for the tone this debate has taken on since it has picked up again. Thank you to all involved.

 

November_echo,

Prove your assertions from Scripture. Please note as you think it through that Matthew 7:1 is followed closely by Matthew 7:6 ("Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine" - we would have to JUDGE who is a dog and who is swine) and Matthew 7:15 ("Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves" - we are here told to beware of false prophets, who look good from the outside but on the inside are ravenous wolves - how shall we know what is on the inside of a person? - their fruit - we JUDGE their fruit). So, if you plan on using Matthew 7:1, please do so in context, explaining how the above mentioned passages affect the meaning of 7:1.

You seem to imply that salvation is merely an assent to a set of facts. Surely, you do not limit God's gospel and its transforming power to a simple mental assent, as if God just wanted us to change our minds about something. Please explain.

Lon