Are you a victem of easy belevism?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by LarryV2.0, Aug 15, 2006.

  1. LarryV2.0

    LarryV2.0
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    I posted a thred, about five years ago, on this board about victems of easy belivism, and there was a lot of response so I thought I would do it again.


    Over the years I have heared the testemonies of many Christians who were led in a prayor as a child and thought that they were saved only to learn at a much later date that they were wrong and then they got saved for real.


    Would you post a short testimoney of what happened to you , if you are one of those people whom I have discribed.

    The blesing of reading such testimonies is , however, overshadowed by the relization that most who are led in a false conversion never come to a saving faith and instead grow old and die and go to hell because of an overzellous soule winner, who I have taken to calling Speritual Pedophiles.

    The need for a thred like this is great and your testemonie may be the thing that helps a parent recognise danger signals or even help someone who is leading children to make false professions, to stop.
     
  2. James_Newman

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    I think the problem is confusing salvation with conversion/sanctification. I believe I was saved by believing alone. I wasn't living right, and it took some time before I was brought to the realization that God would require obedience from me as a saved child of God. But I don't doubt that I was saved. Christians need to be aware that they are still going to be held accountable for their works at the judgment seat of Christ, and that is something that 'easy believism' often neglects, namely discipleship. We need to teach the pure simple gospel of Christ, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Then we need to try to get these people in to churches where they can be discipled and grow in Christ. But we cannot pervert the grace of God. Believers can and do live sinfull worldly lives. They will still be saved, but they will be judged for their sins.
     
  3. LarryV2.0

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    What are you going to do with verses in the bible that say things like “unless you have believed in vain” or “we arenot of they who draw back again unto pradition, but of those who believe unto the saving of the soule” Quoted from memory, so there may be errors on my part.

    The point I'm trying to make is that the bible confirms that there is such a thing as false converts so they would not be the same thing as someone who truly got saved and did not get proper discipleship.

    Would you agree that a false gosple would result in false converts?
     
  4. James_Newman

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    I would certainly agree that a false gospel would result in false converts. But belief on the Lord Jesus for salvation is not a false gospel. How would you tell the difference between someone who was saved but living like the devil, and someone who was never saved? Jesus said that whosoever believed would be raised up on the last day. If a believer can 'believe in vain' it must be in relation to something other than the common salvation of being raised up on the last day. I think the believer still has promises to obtain through obedience, and can come short of those promises. Mainly the promise of reigning with Jesus in the kingdom, which we must suffer for.
     
  5. DeeJay

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    I dont think you can believe in vain. Either you believe or you do not.

    I do think that there are people who say they believe, go to church, play the part. But in their heart they do not believe. They would be false converts, or more accurately, not converts at all.

    I still find your comparison to pedophiles sickening.
     
  6. rbell

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    Agreed.

    To compare a well-meaning "soul-winner" to a child-molester is insulting, vulgar, and ridiculous.
     
  7. LarryV2.0

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    I didnt get a chance to read the thred before it was deleted but I think the comparison is apropreat. Whether the ofender ment good is erelivent when compaired to the harm done by either one.

    PS: Yes it is sickoning but nun the less, unless we call it what it is we do a discervice to all.


    PPS: I'm perfictly willing to change what I call it if you can recommend a replacment.
     
    #7 LarryV2.0, Aug 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2006
  8. rbell

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    umm...anything but Pedophile?
     
  9. LarryV2.0

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    Because of our sinful nature, we tend to pervert the pure and simple meaning of believing. See 1cor 15:2 and Heb 10:39, God will not except a distorted and vane faith. Believing to the saving of your soul requires the intervention of God and it cannot exist without repentance.

    See Acts 20:21, Hebrews 6:1, If Jesus said "repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk 1:15) regarding the Kingdom of God, how much more so should we repent and believe the gospel of the grace of God?

    Paul said in Galatians 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

    That narrows things down a bit. Lets look at the Gospel Paul preached.

    Acts 20:20-21 “And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Romans Chapter Ten. Is one of the most commonly used chapters for witnessing. Let’s take a close look. If Paul was being truthful in the twentieth chapter of Acts, we should be able to find "repentance toward God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ" in the tenth chapter of Romans.

    Although the word Repent can not be found, the teaching can.
    Romans 10:3 “For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
    Again in Vs 9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

    It is important to note that, the running theme of chapters 9 and 10 are the sovereignty, righteousness and the law of God. (Giving grounds for repentance)

    Romans 10:8 and 10:17 equate Faith with Believing.

    What about “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”?

    Just be sure you don’t put the cart before the horse. Because the next verse says: “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?”… And the context of the chapter places Believing after Repentance.

    Some have the idea that if you can get a lost person to make a confession, they are saved, based on Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    The word "unto" is used in the Bible thousand of times, Genesis 1:9 and Revelation 22:18 are the first and last times "unto" is used.

    Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    As in every other place in the Bible, that I know of, "unto" is used to indicate a subject, be it the place God gathered the waters to, the man that heareth the words, the things written in this book or any man adding to the things written in the book. Romans 10:10 means exactly what it says (believing is a heart thing and confession is a mouth thing) if God wanted to say, "confession produces salvation" he would have said so.

    1.The Spirit of God convicts a sinner; the sinner becomes repentant.
    2.Having heard the Gospel, the sinner believes and is saved, at that very moment.
    3.Prayer, confession etc, are the natural fruit of salvation.

    Why we are lost and how we are saved

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    God had created Adam in his image, after his likeness. Adam was built to last, time had no effect on him. Adam had fellowship with God. God walked with Adam. Physically and spiritually speaking, Adam was "vary good", in fact Adam was Righteous. "Righteous" means equitable, something that is equitable can stand on its own merits, there is no debit on its account.

    As soon as Adam sinned, Justice then had a legitimate claim against him and Adam lost his righteousness. When Adam & Eve had children, they were "in his own likeness, after his image" (Gen 5:3), that is to say, in his fallen state a.k.a. "iniquity". Iniquity means no equity or unrighteous. King David was no exception, he inherited his iniquity from Adam (see Ps 51:5) just like us.
    Now see Romans 4:3-8. God, in his wonderful mercy, provided the means for redemption. Deem means judge, redeem means to rejudge! Abraham believed a promise we believe a proclamation. We were " condemned already" (John 3:18) but if and when we believe, we are judged again and found righteous.


    Proceding were some quoted from a study I did and tought several years ago.
     
  10. J. Jump

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    What I don't understand is why would someone fake the belief in Jesus Christ as Savior. There's no Scriptural support of this idea, but despite it is RAMPANT among Christendom.

    People say our churches are flooded with false believers.

    I can't for the life of me think why someone would want to fake belief in Jesus' death and shed blood. How do you fake that? And how would you know the difference?

    Again salvation is something that is inward not outward. We have got to get away from this idea of false believers. It serves ZERO purpose. If someone says they believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ on behalf of themselves a sinner, then treat that person as a saved individual, because that's what the Bible says they are.

    If they are living in sin as a believer then go through the steps that Scriptures says to use to bring about repentance and if none is found then disfellowship them until they repent, but don't go around saying they were never saved in the first place.

    I don't know how many times people have questioned their salvation because they didn't think they were being "good" enough. We have to quit teaching people that works are associated in ANY form with eternal salvation, because that is just not what Scripture teaches.

    Right living has to do with the point AFTER eternal salvation is done and over with and ONLY then. A Christian can remain in sin or they can die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ within them. It's a choice that has to be made moment by moment. And there are consequences for both choices.
     
  11. DeeJay

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    Because of Mom and Grandma, and Grandpa is a preacher and is so proud of what a good Christian so and so is. And because spouse wants a good Christian home. And all my friends and coworkers are ..........

    You get the idea if you live in Texas or (insert state of high population of Baptists) then it is socaly normal to be a Baptist. Being an unbeliever or any other religion makes you an outsider, not one of the bunch.

    I see it all the time here. When I was a Mormon I was told that if I prayed I would know that the LDS church was true. I prayed and prayed (nothing, no burning of the boosim) but when asked about it. YEA I feelt it, yea god told me it is true. Baptise me now cause I feel it ( I wanted to be like my peers and friends and family)

    LOTS of reason to fake it.
     
  12. LarryV2.0

    LarryV2.0
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    The crux of my post was/is the testemonies of adults who were led into saying a prayor and told that they were saved, if someone wants to fake belefe in Christ etc. thats up to them as long as they leave children alone.

    The Bible warns us about false prophets, false Christs, false apostles, deceitful workers and false brethren. There message is described as, damnable heresies, they preach another Jesus, another gospel and another spirit.

    2 Corinthians, 11:4 Galatians 1:6-9, Mt:7:15, Mt:24:11, Mt:24:24, Lk:6:26, 2Cor:11:13, 2Cor:11:26, Gal:2:4, 2Pt:2:1, 1Jn:4:1

    The devastating result of all this is “false converts”.
     
  13. DeeJay

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    Words have meaning and what you are describing while not right is not pedophilea. You are useing the word for shock value alone. In the process you are hurting victems of pedophiles and down playing what a pedophile is.


    Let me ask you this. Lets say I am guilty of not decipeling somebody in the past. Would you say that what I did is equal to being a childmolester?
    Would you call me as bad as a childmolester, if we were speaking in person?

    Have you EVER not witnessed to somebody when you should have? Of course you have not. If not decipeling is as bad as childmolesting, then how bad is it that you did not even share the gosple?

    What dispicable act are you compairable to?
     
  14. Marcia

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    I am not sure people are "faking" it on purpose, but maybe they go forward in church one Sunday because of an emotional reaction, because others expect it, because of family pressure, etc. not realizing what is happening. I think this can happen to young people.

    I was baptized at age 11 and I was definitely not a believer. My baptism was arranged by my mother (who I think was a nominal believer herself) since she wanted me baptized at that point and in that church. I don't recall if I walked the aisle beforehand and I don't recall the pastor asking me anything. He probably did, but if so, I would have given the expected answers - I knew what they were. I knew I was supposed to believe in Jesus and be baptized to be good. But Jesus and the Bible at that point were very unreal to me. This was in a So. Baptist church.

    Later in my teens, at another So. Baptist church, I was also a "fake believer." I went to church, to youth group, etc. and would have told people I was a Christian (because I had been baptized, after all). I knew what I was supposed to say -- I was desperately trying to be good enough for God.

    Naturally, this house of cards fell apart. In my case, it was around age 16 when I started questioning the Bible and the truth of Chrisitianity, and decided to explore other beliefs. By age 17, I had made a conscious, deliberate decision to reject Christianity, and in college I continued on this path, turning into a full-blown New Ager and astrologer until God intervened and saved me in late 1990.
     
  15. LarryV2.0

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    I understand that this can get emotional and I will hold no ill fealings towards you if you continue to say things like “Have you EVER not witnessed to somebody when you should have? Of course you have not.” but please, lets not let things go overboard.

    I'm not talking about decipling. I'm taliking about adults who con children into saying a prayor and then telling the child that he is saved. Yes all new converts should be decipled, I agree 100%.

    Just hang in there and see if someone post their testimonie, I think you will see what I'm talking about.

    Hypotheticly speeking, would it be better to be led to the lord and then left without being decipled OR would it be better to be told to repet this prayor and then be taught doctrin in a church until you die of old age, without having ever realy been saved?
     
  16. J. Jump

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    Are there people that walk and isle and don't completely understand what's going on? Sure there are. I myself am one of those. I walked the isle at a young age and thought I was saved.

    That's not being a victim of easy believism, that's being a victim of bad pastor/teachers, bad Sunday School teachers, mis-informed, mis-intentioned parents.

    But what has happened is that part of Christendom has gone to an extreme to fix the problem with a problem that is just as wrong. Instead of re-educating pastors, SS teachers, parents, grand-parents, evangelists or whatever we have started teaching that eternal salvation is something that is difficult and hard to obtain.

    What has happened is that a part of Christendom has tied discipleship with eternal salvation in order for people to somehow "prove" they are Christians. If you don't produce fruit then you must not be a Christian.

    That's not what the Bible says at all. It is EXTREMELY easy to believe. We just need to make sure that people understand what they are believing first instead of notching a slot on our belt on in our Bible and racking up another "saved" person for the kingdom.

    You know when I was actually "saved" basically all the discipling that I got was go home and read the Gospel of John and come back to church.

    Eternal salvation is easy (not cheap), but discipleship has a HUGE price to pay and not all Christians are willing to pay that price, but it has nothing to do with whether or not they are saved.
     
  17. LarryV2.0

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    :tear: amazing grace how sweet the sound..... I once was lost but now am found was blind but now I see
     
  18. J. Jump

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    But conversion and salvation are apples and oranges. Only saved folks can be converted and only unsaved folks can be saved.
     
  19. LarryV2.0

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    But what has happened is that part of Christendom has gone to an extreme to fix the problem with a problem that is just as wrong. Instead of re-educating pastors, SS teachers, parents, grand-parents, evangelists or whatever we have started teaching that eternal salvation is something that is difficult and hard to obtain.



    I all for that. Dont you think a good way to begin Re-educating would be to compile testemonies of people who have gone threw it?
     
  20. J. Jump

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    I think that could be part of the answer, but Baptists alone can't even come to a conclusion on what it means for a person to be saved. So I think more important than testimonies is preaching, teaching and sharing with others what salvation is.

    Get an agreement on what it means to be eternally saved and how one is eternally saved and then get testimonies about how people have varied from that.
     

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