Are You Saving Yourself?

Er...not quite. A couple of inaccuracies in your post:

1. The faithful were being instructed by the Apostles and their successors (appointees if you prefer) before parts of the NT were even written (eg: if you go for the generally accepted 'late date' for Revelation of c.95AD, then Peter and Paul had long since passed from the scene, perishing in the Neroan persecution of 64-66AD, leaving their portions of the flock to be instructed and shepherded by their successors such as Timothy, Titus, Linus and Anecletus, for an entire generation before John started dictating Rev 1). So Scripture was by no means the only authority in the Church in the first century, and that template had remained the model ever since.

2. Who do you think was responsible for determining the 27 books we have in our NT? Who decided for example that the Gospel of John was included and the Gospel of Peter was not? I'll give you a clue - it wasn't the Apostles because thet had been dead around 300 years by then. It was the guys they appointed and left behind to watch over Jesus' Church, and the guys they appointed etc

 

Do you assume HP believes as you do?

You state....".....based on the statements of Christ and Paul, that our final salvation, at the Judgement, will be in accordance to our good works..."

Here is a quote from HP...."No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period."

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

BTW DT, I do read everything you post. If I don't respond to it all it is because it is either too lengthy or most of it is agreeable.

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

No.

As HP puts it.....No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period."

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Agreed. Unfortunately, there are no apostolic fathers alive today. Which leaves us the scriptures for doctrinal authority.

 

Slight correction: for you, it is in reality the Scriptures plus the assumption (hope?) that what you have in the pages of your Bible is the Scriptures...

I do not have that problem since I believe that the Church got it right in the 4th and early 5th centuries when it compiled the list of the 27 books which we call the NT, simply because I believe that Christ founded the Church to get it right.

 

I marvel at your disbelief in the Apostles, their disciples, the early church. What is your opionion of them? Even though the Apostles wrote the books of the NT, you think they were totally inept and even "stupid" enough not to be able to teach to the early church which ones were inspired and which ones were not? Quite an amazing opinion of the Apostles you have.

The Scriptures were inscripturated as they were being written, and were completed by the end of the first century. The Apostles knew by Divine appointment which were Scripture and which were not. The ones that were skeptical about them in years to come are the ones that are always skeptical and cause controversies. They are normally called "skeptics," and for good reasons. They were probably called gnostics, among others that caused confusion in that day. The true believers knew which books were inspired and certainly did not need the RCC to tell them which ones they were. What a lark!!

 

Really? So tell me which Apostle wrote the Table of Contents for the NT and where I can find it within the NT. Show me where Peter writes, for example, "You know this Gospel I'm supposed to have written, well it's all rubbish and you really shouldn't stick it in the New Testament thing." Perhaps he said this in Acts or one of his Letters.

I'm looking forward to hearing chapter and verse for this one....

 

As if you didn't know already! I have already explained this to you, but you reject it.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--The only sin that will condemn a person to hell is the sin of the rejection of Jesus Christ.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--The only sin that will condemn a person to hell is the sin of the rejection of Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--Christ is the only way. To reject him as the only way is the is the only sin that will condemn a person to hell.

On the basis of these verses alone one can easily see that the only sin that condemns a person to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ. Do you believe what the Bible says?

I am not the one making any assumptions here. I take God at His word; you disbelieve God. You fail to take Him at His Word, but rather say that your philosophy is wiser than God's Word and therefore disbelieve God's Word. You bring in a red herring, and therefore disbelieve God's Word. Tell me: Is your wisdom wiser than God's. That is your conclusion.

Why are you not willing to take God at his word, and leave God's problems up to God's. If you are really concerned about the loss, then obey the Lord and be a part of fulfilling the Great Commission by going out to the neediest lands on the face of this earth and give the gospel to them. Instead of spouting off vain philosophy do something about it.
God has spoken. Do you believe God or not?

The only sin that condemns a man is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. The totality of his sin cannot condemn him. Jesus paid the penalty for his sins. When he rejects that penalty he has rejected Christ.

 

Where have I slandered you?
The teaching of John 14:6 coupled with the teaching of John 3 is very clear. I question whether you believe it or not. That is not slander. If Jesus claims to be the only way to heaven, then either what He said is true and he is the only way to heaven and there is no other way, (even for the heathen), or he is the biggest liar, deceiver, fake, imposter, that ever walked the face of this earth. Which one is he? You choose. If the former, then the only way to Heaven is through Christ, and the only sin that keeps one out of heaven is the rejection of Christ, and that is also the only sin which sends one to hell. Fair enough?

 

DHK,

I understand that you are moderator.

But, you have to be careful when you make post. You should not say "You reject it", or, "You disbelieve God" toward to HP. That is kind of offend his belief.

HP never saying that he reject it or not believe in God. You just jump the conclusion over, as not what HP actual mean it. He truly believe in God, and also, he truly believe God's Word.

You have to be positive and just discuss or debate with someone who actual believe in God and Bible, with love.

I am sure that HP is a truly believer, because I have read his posts many times. Almost everything that I agree with him.

You know that many Christians, and even, also many Baptists across America have their different intepreting God's Word. There are over 300 different organizations of 'Baptist' in America. Because of divisions on doctrines. There is no perfect chruch on earth. But, we have perfect person is Jesus Christ. Also, we have a perfect book - Bible. Bible have the answer everything. But, our understanding are limited. God's knowledge is more beyond over all of us.

When once all Christians get into heaven, all will have the SAME ONE MIND, there will be no division in heaven. Amen.

Please respect HP's beliefs and interpreting. You can not agree with him, that's is fine. But, do not criticize over him. Just discuss on God's Word with questions and points. Not just attack over personal. Ok. Let's love each other :1_grouphug: as brothers and sisters in Christ.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

No, that is but a red herring that you have chosen to bring in. Most of this thread has centered around the fact that the one and only sin that sends a person to Hell is Jesus Christ, no exceptions made. What you have done is to bring in other people who you think are other exceptions, thereby trying to bypass the words of Jesus. If Jesus said that He is the Only Way, that means the only way for all, including those that you say have never heard.

Even here, however, that is not the OP. The OP is:

Both Amy and TCGreek took your opening post here as to mean that you were proposing a works-based salvation. Both disagreed with you.
Then the discussion veered off into repentance of sins, how sins condemn you to hell, and finally the fact that the only sin that condemns a person to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour, which is where we are. And that fact, which has been demonstrated to you many times, is the truth of the Bible. Christ is the only way to heaven for everyone. If anyone in this world rejects Christ he will go to hell. There are no exceptions.

You have a problem then.
1. If this is on your conscience then you need to do something about it by obeying the Great Commission and going to the neediest place on earth and giving out the gospel to those that have never heard so that their blood will not be upon your hands.
2. You can believe the Scripture:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--God doesn't lie. Because we don't understand his methods, his ways, does not give us a right to question his promise. Are you willing to take his words at face value?
3. God left the salvation of every human of the world in the first century in the hands of eleven men. He had no back up plan. If those men had failed you and I would not be saved today. Did those eleven men succeed in their mission? Did the gospel go out into all the world by the hands of the Apostles or did they fail?
4. With all the technology that Christianity has available today, I firmly believe that if Christians so desired to focus their attention on getting the gospel out to every person in the world, they could do it without any problem. We have the resources. The problem is that we have apathetic, carnal, Christians that are more concerned with their affluent and material way of life than they are with reaching the world for Christ. They really don't care about whether or not people go to hell. That is the stark reality about Christianity. In the end: Their blood (the blood of the lost) will be upon our (Christians) hands.

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

This is the NT position. It is the position of Jesus. He is the one who said: "I am the way." He claimed to be the only way to heaven, excluding all other ways, no matter who you were or of what status or religion, or geographical region you lived in. There are no excuses. He is the only way. You, HP, cannot make excuses for the heathen for rejecting Christ.
"They all are without excuse."

Jesus said that he is the only way to heaven. He never made any exceptions to that. Can you find me the exception to John 14:6. It only exists in your philosophy which you are making up as you go along. It is not in the Bible. The only way to heaven is through Christ, no exceptions. To keep on saying: "But what about... and what about... and what about...," is only to doubt the Word of God.

If, for argument's sake, a Muslim (whom you say has not heard) dies. He will go to hell for the rejection of Christ and for no other reason. You may not understand that, and perhaps refuse to understand that. Of course the entire religion of Islam (much of the Koran plagiarized from the Bible), is a rejection of Christianity. They have no excuse. The name of Jesus is mentioned more times in the Koran than the name of Mohammed. They have no excuse. Only in your mind does a man have an excuse not to trust Christ as Saviour. God doesn't see it that way.

 

Amen! God forgive me. I need to do more. raying:

They are taught from a very young age about Jesus and who Christians say he is, what Christians believe. And are taught that Christians manipulated the scriptures, that Jesus is not the Son of God but only a prophet. So ironically they hear Jesus is the Savior, yet are taught at the same time it is a lie.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

Okay, so after a week off I've looked at your replies and have decided to respond. For starters, after I finished my last post with a reference ot the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant, you wrote this...

First it's ironic that you talk about me "jumping to another passage" when in fact you did that very thing after I dealt with the passage from Titus 3 which you cited as alleged evidence against my position. Instead of answering me back, you proceeded to cite Galatians 2:16 which you are now using as evidence for your assertion that "Paul has totally destroyed [my] view". Okay, let's jump to this passage and see if that is indeed the case...

When interpreting this passage, the first thing we need to "notice" is both the immediate context (ie the surrounding verses) and the larger context--Paul's entire corpus within the NT and within the historical context of his polemics against the Judaizers. The contexts in both cases demonstrate what Paul is talking about when he is referring to the "works of the law" and that is primarily the Jewish "boundary markers" of Torah keeping, specifically embodied in circumcision, Sabbath keeping, food and other ceremonial laws.

Look first at the preceding verses 2:11-15: Paul recounts Peter "playing the hypocrite" by separating himself from the Gentiles when the men from James arrived to Antioch, "fearing those who were of the circumcision" (v.12). Paul then laid into Peter and asked him: "If you being a Jew, live in a manner of the Gentiles and not of the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? (v 14), and continues "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Christ Jesus, even we [Jewish believers like Paul and Peter] have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified [reckoned righteous] by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law (Torah) (v.15-16)." It's clear then that the "works of the law" to which Paul refers are primarily those Jewish boundary markers such as circumcision, not eating with Gentiles, etc, and further evidence for this idea is found throughout the argument made in the rest of the epistle midway through chapter 5 (see especially 4:9-10 and 5:11-12). This usage of the "works of the law" is consistent with how Paul used it elsewhere (ie Romans, particularly 2:17-29; 3:1-2; 3:27-31; 4:1-12; etc) in his arguments dealing with Jews, Gentiles, works (especially circumcision) and faith in Christ. This also makes sense in light of the historical context of the Church dealing with how the Gentiles are to be accepted vis-a-vis the Torah (and the Judaizers) as recounted in Acts 15 for example.

That being the case, there is nothing in that verse which conflicts with what Paul says elsewhere regarding salvation, starting with this statement in the same epistle:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.” (Galatians 5:6)

In other words, it’s not presence of absence of the “works of the LAW” (ie circumcision) that counts, but faith working through love which ‘avails’. So far from a barren faith alone being sufficient, faith must be expressed in deeds or works of love. Paul nowhere teaches that a workless, loveless ‘faith’ is sufficient for salvation. Further down in his epistle, he states that eternal life is something that is yet to be reaped, if the believer sows to the Spirit rather than the flesh and does not lose heart (6:7-9). So in other words, we actually have to make an effort to sow to the Spirit—even after we are initially saved—if we want to reap eternal life.

And all of this from that same epistle that contains the passage that you set forth as some sort of proof text that our works (of loving obedience) have nothing whatsoever to do with our ongoing salvation/justifcation and final judgment. Yet Paul elsewhere is also explicitly clear that at the final judgment God will render to each according to his deeds:
"eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish no every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Romans 2:6-10)"

This of course agrees with what Christ said about the final judgment:

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)

Therefore, rather than Paul destroying my view, it’s Paul and Jesus Himself who destroy your misinterpretation and proof-texting of Galatians 2:16 in attempting to deny that the final moment of our salvation at the Judgment will be according to our works. (Romans 2:6-10, John 5:28-29)

To be continued...

 

Continuing on...

I do care quite a bit that you carefully consider the context (both immediate and larger) of this passage so you don't keep misinterpreting it and thus continue using it as a proof text against an argument I've never made--that I somehow advocate maintaining my salvation by the works of the Law.


I had also mentioned that you preferred to knock down straw men than to seriously deal with my position, to which you queried...

No, it's not "Paul"; it's the gross mischaracterizations of my position as expressed in such quips as these:

I've never posited two different salvations--just the biblical fact that biblical salvation has a begining in time (initial salvation), an ongoing aspect, and a final realization (final salvation). And your last quote above is particularly absurd and resembles nothing I've ever defended--ie it's a straw man par excellence.


So moving on...

And do see now, that given the identity of the "works of law", that I don't disagree?

Do you also see how JAMES demolishes your misinterpretation of Paul?:

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can FAITH SAVE HIM?” (James 2:14)

This is a rhetorical answer to which the answer is obviously “no”.

“Thus faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead” (James 2:17)

(And a dead faith ain’t gonna save anybody)

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (James 2:22-23)

James clearly states that ABRAHAM was himself justified by works (just not the “works of the TORAH” ie circumcision) and not by faith only.

“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” (James 2:14)

So seeing how Paul, James, and Jesus destroy with your misinterpretation and proof texting of Galatians 2:16, will you agree never to use that verse again in trying to deny that works of loving obedience have nothing to do with our ongoing justification and final moment of salvation at the Judgment?


And getting back to the parable of the unforgiving servant…

Where does it say THAT in the passage?

 

Since you've incredibly conceded all of this, will you now acknowledge the logical implication of the facts which you conceded--that a believer in Christ can actually fall away and lose his salvation, and that, therefore, OSAS is incorrect? :applause:

I look forward to your reply (or at least the next scripture passage you decide to jump to).

 

One who always prays thus has no need to fear for his salvation IMO

 

I did answer you back on page 8...

"The law" is all five books and everything in those books given by God for righteous living.

This includes...."love thy neighbour as thyself". And if you obey this one law you do very well indeed. In fact you fullfill all of the law...Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is loving my neighbour a righteous act? Yes it is. Will loving my neighbour justify my soul unto eternal life? No it will not. Paul states "we have believed in Jesus Christ". Notice this is "past tense" and Paul in the same breath states "that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law"

Wrong.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Works of the law (ie. love thy neighbour as thyself) will not justify you. It will however show your faith in Christ (ie. James) Jam 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

.......to be continued......

God Bless! :thumbs: