Arminian, General, or Free Will Baptists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Michael Wrenn, Aug 31, 2001.

  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    Help! I'm drowning in the Calvinism on this board.

    Aren't there any Arminian/General/Free Will Baptists here?

    BTW, the first English Baptists were General Baptists. You Calvinists are just interlopers. ;)
     
  2. Karen

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
    ...
    Aren't there any Arminian/General/Free Will Baptists here?...
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am not a Calvinist, but I am not an Arminian either. Both sides emphasize certain aspects of God's character and Self-revelation while not paying enough attention to others.
    I believe that the above is a majority view in the SBC.
    As Herschel Hobbs put it about Calvinism and election, "One error is that election depends merely upon God's will or good pleasure. The fallacy of this position is that it magnifies some aspects of God's nature to the neglect of all others. It emphasizes God's will and power and minimizes His righteousness and love. Likewise, it ignores the human will and power of choice."
    from Fundamentals of Our Faith by Herschel
    Hobbs

    For you non-SBCers, Herschel Hobbs was a
    convention president and one of the chief
    architects of the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message.

    In my view, a chief problem with the Calvinist view expressed on these boards is that God's glory is presented as improved by an arbitrary choice that selects some and rejects others no matter what,while failing to properly take into account God's mercy and grace.
    It also fails to properly take into account man's moral responsibility.

    Karen
     
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    Yes, Karen...and thanks for the reply.
     
  4. EPH 1:4

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    If not for election, we would all spend eternity in hell. Thank the Lord for grace. BTW, Mr. Hobbs is an arminian.
     
  5. Michael Wrenn

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    Arminians believe in grace; they just have a different perception of it than Calvinists do.
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my impression that armenians believe that they take the first step in being saved thus taking away the saving action from God which scripture clearly points out is only from Him?

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  7. Michael Wrenn

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    That is incorrect; that is not what Arminians believe.
     
  8. Brother Adam

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    Care to elaborate?

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  9. EPH 1:4

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    Arminians believe that Christ died for all, and that salvation is an offer, "you can accept it or reject it, it's your choice." Also, they believe God loves everyone so much that He doesn't want anyone to go to hell. I was an arminian for several years before I started studying the bible.
     
  10. Michael Wrenn

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    Arminian Baptists were the first English Baptists; John Wesley was an Arminian, and so is the Methodist movement. Do you intend to say that these people did not study the Bible? That is simply Calvinist bias and baloney.

    Arminians believe in grace; in fact, they believe in something called "prevenient grace"--the grace or Light of Christ God instills in every human being (John 1:9) from the beginning of their lives. This grace draws all humans toward Christ, but people still have the free will--another gift of God--to accept or reject this grace. This is the Biblical teaching; it emphasizes the love and mercy of God toward all humans, as well as His sovereignty--God is the originator of this grace and bestows it freely and equally on all. This is in sharp contrast to the puppetmaster/puppet theology of Calvinism with its fatalistic determinism which casts a dark shadow on the character of God. The god of Calvinism is NOT the God of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Calvinistic theology is perhaps the most reprehensible theological system ever perpetrated upon mankind; the doctrine of double predestination alone is a doctrine from the pit of hell.
     
  11. FundamentalDan

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    I agree with neither Calvin or Arminius, because I think that they both went overboard. I also think that we make more of the Calvin and Arminius issue. God told us to go preach the Gospel. We should do the part that God told us to do and just let Him do the part that He said He would do.

    FundamentalDan
     
  12. John Wells

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    Finally, you were starting to debate the scriptures, but then you trailed off into your emotional unsubstantiated personal opinions again. I too, once held the Arminian view, until I ran across these verses:

    The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:4 NIV)

    We are powerless to "see" and "desire" God unless God Himself removes the spiritual blinders Satan puts on us.

    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 NIV)

    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom 8:29-30 NIV)

    There are more, but that's enough for now. I would appreciate your intellectual rebuttal rather than your usual emotional rheteric.
     
  13. EPH 1:4

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    ACT 13:48..And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed...1) ordained 2) believed...arminians believe the opposite. Man does have a free will, but he will never, ever choose God. JOHN 3:19..And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
     
  14. Brother Adam

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    I'm curious- does the ability to decifer the intellectual mysteries of the Bible and contemplate perfect theological standards decide ones salvation?

    Seriously- does comprehending the mode of salvational grace determine ones permenant home?

    If I don't hold to the correct view of hamartiology, soteriology, zoelogy, etc am I destined to the "pit of hell"?

    Will we ever be able to determine beyond any argueable doubt that a certian view of denominational Christianity is the "correct view"?

    "It is easy to understand God- as long as you do not try to explain Him." Joseph Joubert

    I have to admit I agree with that. Instead of always arguing the fine points I find it is better to get out there and expand God's kingdom. After all what other reason are we here? And for crying out loud you're all Baptists!!! Pull it together. You all believe in the same Savior, the same Lord of All.

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  15. Eladar

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    Unity in Christ. What a refreshing concept. I would go so far as to say that this transends denominations. I would say that it is what should unite all Bible believing Christians.

    So, in other words, "Amen" flyfree432.
     
  16. Kiffin

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    Michael, said,

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> BTW, the first English Baptists were General Baptists. You Calvinists are just interlopers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I appreciate the contributions of both the Anabaptists and the Early General Baptists in pioneering the Baptist faith in correcting the errors of both Catholicism and the Reformers regarding the doctrine of the Church and the Sacraments. The way I look at it, the Anabaptists were the first wave of the Radical Reformation in seeking to return Christianity back to the simplicity of Apostolic Christianity. The General Baptists were the Second wave of the Radical Reformation, correcting much of the sometimes isolationist theology of the Anabaptists and were overall more orthodox than the Anabaptists. The Particular Baptists were the Third wave of the Radical Reformation, correcting the Arminianism of their predecessors (Anabaptist, General Baptists)bringing Baptist theology more in line with the Soterology of the Magistral Reformers where the Anabaptists and General Baptists were deficient.

    Interesting it would be the Particular Baptists who would take the Radical Reformation to the next level teaching a more balanced theology than their Anabaptist, General Baptists brothers and sisters that preceded them. Particular Baptists would actually be the pioneers in World Evangelism through such Calvinists as Fuller, Carey and Judson.

    Ok, sorry to continue the flood of Calvinism :D Just my 2 cents worth [​IMG]

    [ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
  17. Kiffin

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    Adam, said

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Instead of always arguing the fine points I find it is better to get out there and expand God's kingdom. After all what other reason are we here? And for crying out loud you're all Baptists!!! Pull it together. You all believe in the same Savior, the same Lord of All. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Theology is important. The points Armians and Calvinist debate over are not minor points. Don't get me wrong I believe Arminians believe in the same Lord as I but we cannot ignore Doctrine.
     
  18. Eladar

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    But to what ends? As FF posted, is this a topic of salvation? Does the correct or incorrect understanding of this matter affect salvation? I don't think so. All this kind of pickering does is divide (a sign of the sinful nature). Why is it so important that we must agree about things that don't have any relevence when it comes to things that save?
     
  19. John Wells

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    Tuor,

    The truth of God's Word always matters in all matters.
     
  20. Brother Adam

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    "The truth of God's Word always matters in all matters."

    John-

    You will be happy to know that I agree with you. YET- that does render my post useless. It still stands. In fact your statement is further proof of my statement.

    "The truth of God's Word"- John: What makes you think that your view is perfect? I don't think you do. I am always astonished to think about what I KNEW was truth when I was a Lutheran only to find how differently I think now. The truth of God's Word is that it is God's Word. Our interpertations are hardly inerrant. That is why I believe we should not be tearing at each others throat over what we so strongly believe is the correct interpertation of a particular passage.

    "Christ is Life- The rest are details": How true. While debating theology has its place, for sure, how far are we to go when debating. If we are too far split from one and another satan will be more than willing (and he does) to go to the unsaved and whisper in thier ear "Look at those ****** Christians- all they do is argue even about the foundational matters of thier faith."

    If I didn't think theology was important I would not be getting rebaptized this Sunday. Yet I believe there should be limits to how split we become over doctrine.

    Until Next Post, Adam
     

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