arminianism, calvinism, and universalism

Hey, this is already on another forum. You should close this one down or close the other one down!

 

Hi Gabe,

I believe that the third proposition is false. Why? Because God is love and love never fails.

Thanks for the opportunity to speak of the GOOD NEWS - the glorious gospel.

All glory honor and praise to you almighty God. \o/

What do you have that hasn't been given to you by God? All things are of Him, by Him, for Him and to Him.

GH

 

1,2,3

They are all true!

Nice going!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Gabe said:
Hey gang!

At least one proposition below is false. Which do you reject, and why?

(1) It is God's redemptive purpose for the world (and therefore his will) to reconcile all sinners to himself;

(2) It is within God's power to achieve his redemptive purpose for the world;

(3) Some sinners will never be reconciled to God, and God will therefore either consign them to a place of eternal punishment, from which there will be no hope of escape, or put them out of existence altogether.

-Gabe

Me: #1 is false given the Biblical fact of a specific people "given" to Jesus (John 6:37).

#2 is true because it is the reason that anybody is saved in the first place(Rom. 8:29).

#3 is true in the sense that a place exists where people will suffer eternal torment for rejecting Christ (Rev. 20).

In Christ

 

GH, excellent thoughts. Thanks for the response. [/QB][/QUOTE]

You're welcome.

 

G.H.,
could you please explain why you believe just # 3 is false?

Thanks

 

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself; That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him...

The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the consequences of our sins, is a false, mean, low notion. The salvation of Christ is salvation from the smallest tendency or leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into the pure air of God’s ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgusting. It sees a thing as it is,—that is, as God sees it, for God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and skulk there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin. Jesus did not die to save us from punishment; he was called Jesus because he should save his people from their sins. -George MacDonald-

 

You quoted George MacDonald:
The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the consequences of our sins, is a false, mean, low notion.
end of quote

Me: Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. Then says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

This seems to say that sin deserves death yet through the salvation of Jesus Christ we don't have to suffer for the consequences of sin.

How do you justify this belief Biblically with verses dealing with people who actually suffer in hell? (If I am not understanding you please clarify)

 

Dear Southern,

I believe that Mr. MacDonald’s point is that salvation isn’t being delivered from eternal torment in hell, but rather to be saved is be set free from sin.

2 Corinthians 5
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

And what is the result of such a great salvation?

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ‘For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:43-48)

Being perfect isn’t being sinless but rather it is loving God, your neighbor, yourself and your enemies as your heavenly Father does.

For further study, if you are so inclined, check out this site:

http://www.johannesen.com/HopeoftheGospelComplete.htm

God bless you in your search for truth.

 

GH,
Call me shallow, but I am not quite understanding your point.
Let me ask a specific question.
Do you believe in the place called hell and eternal punishment?

Maybe this will get to the point.

In Christ

 

Rev 14 points out that the "Smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever". It also points out that they "they have no rest day or night".

Sounds like the "punishment is real".

Of course - the text ALSO says that ALL of this takes place "IN the presence of the Lamb and of his holy ones". Which means - "we will all be there for every minute of it"

So it is real. And we all will "really" be there for it. Hopefully WITH Christ as the Lamb - and yet it is IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy ones that this will take place.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,
Amen brother

In Christ

 

Oh Bob, Christ is victorious. Think about it.

 

Gh,
Your response was :"Christ is victorious"

after BobRyan provided you with scripture that clearly teaches eternal punishment and the fact that all you could say is "Christ is Victorious" leaves me puzzled.
Exactly what does that have to do with those who go to hell?
Sorry, but I am still not understanding you, call me shallow!

In Christ

 

Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
Most blessèd, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
Almighty, victorious, Thy great Name we praise.

Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light,
Nor wanting, nor wasting, Thou rulest in might;
Thy justice, like mountains, high soaring above
Thy clouds, which are fountains of goodness and love.

To all, life Thou givest, to both great and small;
In all life Thou livest, the true life of all;
We blossom and flourish as leaves on the tree,
And wither and perish—but naught changeth Thee.
Great Father of glory, pure Father of light,
Thine angels adore Thee, all veiling their sight;
But of all Thy rich graces this grace, Lord, impart
Take the veil from our faces, the vile from our heart.

All laud we would render; O help us to see
’Tis only the splendor of light hideth Thee,
And so let Thy glory, almighty, impart,
Through Christ in His story, Thy Christ to the heart.

Words: Walter C. Smith, Hymns of Christ and the Christian Life, 1876.
Music: “St. Denio,” Welsh melody; from Canaidau y Cyssegr, by John Roberts, 1839 (MIDI, score).

 

GH,
The music and the quotes do not substitute for Biblical authority on the question of how 'you' interpret passages teaching eternal punishment.
Please don't take me the wrong way, I am just wandering how you interpret these verses.

In Christ

 

Hi Southern,

I think anything less than a total victory isn't a victory for Christ. The scriptures that Bob quoted are definitely in question for me. As I have found that the traditions of men have made the word of no avail. Mistranslations, misinterpretations and control have clouded the simplicity of the gospel of Christ. A Christ whose hands are tied because men have made the wrong decision and therefore must be sent to hell for eternity.

I don't think you're shallow - anyone who seeks understanding is quite wise in my book.

May springs of Living Water well up inside you and may God grant you understanding.

BTW, we posted at the same time above, if you'll notice. The hymn is just my way of lifting up our almighty, all-powerful, loving God. A God who destroys sin and death. A life-giving God Who makes all things new.

I praise Him \o/

 

Great posts, GH. It is wonderful news that God's love is inescapable and that Christ has paid the penalty for all of our sins.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/