arminianism, calvinism, and universalism

Hi Kenny

Nice to see you again.

Oh the inescapable love of God!!!! God grant us the words to speak of it often - with boldness and love.


All glory, praise and honor to you, Almighty Father. \o/

Diane

 

Here is that same passage from Young's Literal Translation:

The word used in the Greek here does not mean forever and ever. In fact, nowhere in the NT is torment ever described with the adjective "eternal" in the original Greek. The word in the Greek is always "age enduring" or "ages of ages", implying a limited duration of time. Orthodox Christian universalists believe in God's judgment, we just don't believe that it will be eternal.

This is a good article that explains this view:

The Lake of Fire

 

QUOTE]Here is that same passage from Young's Literal Translation:

The word used in the Greek here does not mean forever and ever. In fact, nowhere in the NT is torment ever described with the adjective "eternal" in the original Greek. The word in the Greek is always "age enduring" or "ages of ages", implying a limited duration of time. Orthodox Christian universalists believe in God's judgment, we just don't believe that it will be eternal.

This is a good article that explains this view:

The Lake of Fire [/QB][/QUOTE]

Hallelujah Cal Dude - Only GOD IS ETERNAL.

I'll check out the site.....thanks.

All glory, honor and praise to YOU ALMIGHTY FATHER \o/

 

The word used in the Greek here does not mean forever and ever. In fact, nowhere in the NT is torment ever described with the adjective "eternal" in the original Greek. The word in the Greek is always "age enduring" or "ages of ages", implying a limited duration of time. Orthodox Christian universalists believe in God's judgment, we just don't believe that it will be eternal.
</font>[/QUOTE]#1. I believe the Rev 14 text when it says that the Lamb AND His Holy ones are RIGHT THERE and the wicked suffer IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and His Holy Ones.

#2. I believe the saints will NOT spend all of eternity watching their loved ones die - because the wicked are "consumed" just as scripture says.

#3. I believe the SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT is the memory of this horrible event - that is never forgotten by the saints.

I do not believe that Christ is wrong in His matt 7 statement that FEW are the ones who find eternal life and MANY or those who go to destruction.

Never in all of scripture do we have the promise -- those in hell fire or those in the lake of fire - will all go to heaven.

In Matt 10 Christ says that BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED in hell fire.

As it turns out - He was telling the truth.

If you believe the body can be destroyed - then just so - the spirit can and will be destroyed along WITH the resurrected body in the case of the wicked.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Just a few verses that say the contrary:

These are just a few, but the point is that all people have been justified (legally declared 'not guilty') through Christ's death and therefore will at some point be regenerated and saved. Romans 5:18 couldn't be any clearer on the matter by using the term "justification of life".

 

I'm definitely not a Universalist (I reckon you could call me Arminian with Calvinist leanings) so don't read any kind of Universalist debate-ploy into my question here..I'm just a layperson with no Greek knowledge who is curious.

Maybe someone here who actually knows something can shed some light on this.

I found the following translation of John 3:16

So that made me want to go look at Strongs.
Strongs # in brackets

[166] aionios [2222] zoe

everlasting life

What is all this "age-during" stuff?

 

Calvinist dude writes;
These are just a few, but the point is that all people have been justified (legally declared 'not guilty') through Christ's death and therefore will at some point be regenerated and saved.

UMP writes:
Then what reason would you possibly have to fear God? Timing?
Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding"

 

Christian universalists do not fear the love of God nor his judgements. although they are concerned with what will perish in their lives. for all men everywhere will be saved and regenerated in their future.
some, if not all of their "works" will perish.

Think about when you received your new resurrected spirit. everything before that moment was considered by Christ as being "dead works" and useless towards your salvation and regeneration.

"works" considered worth perishing.

even so there are "works" done in your flesh after receiving your new resurrected spirit that even you consider shameful and non pleasing to be shared with others. those works will be judged and will perish.


Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

though mans works will be judged. this doesnt signify that their soul will perish. works are actions and memories of the soul. it is not the soul itself.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

works are judged. there are two varieties. righteous and unrighteous. yet as we see in revelations. those standing in front of the throne are ejected from death and hell.

the only reason that death and hell no longer holds them is that the charges of sin have been abolished. hell has no power because of the lack of unrighteous acts. death and hell are being rid of those now called and judged "righteous" souls.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The question that arminians and calvinists should be considering is are they themselves limiting the work of the lord Jesus Christ and limiting his invitation outside the realms of our physical lifespan and beyond our frail human comprehension to all of his fathers creation.

when death is no longer. where do ones soul go?

It goes into eternal life...."in christ".

unfortunately all mens works will eventually be judged. some mens "works" will continue to exist. some mens "works" will perish.

Me2

 

I saw that in Strong's also. I'm no Greek scholar myself (I took one year of Koine Greek, and that was over ten years ago) I'm not sure why Strong's lists "everlasting life" as the only option. The "ages enduring" or "ages during" or "ages of ages" comes from the fact that 'aionios' is a plural form of 'aion' which means age (singular). So "aionios" would be multiple ages. Since Greek has no word for 'eternal' aionios can also be used for that purpose. But it is not limited to that purpose. I believe that many of the Bible translators (especially those of the KJV) were utilizing their presuppositions of eternal torment when they translated those verses dealing with the issue of God's judgment as "eternal".

UMP,
As a Christian, do you not fear God's judgment upon you if you willingly sin. Why not go out and live a life of adultery and deceit. Take advantage of people and rip them off. If you were to begin doing those things, would you not rightly fear the possibility of God's judgment in your life for such gross violations of His commandments? Would you like to follow Jonah's example? You might reply that you follow His commandments out of love, and I wouldn't disagree, but I think we can agree that we all have (or at least, should have) a healthy fear (or respect) for the awesome power of God's mighty justice. You seem to be assuming that Christian universalists deny any condemnation or judgment by God and that's just not the case. There clearly is a place called Hell, and many will go there to be judged for their refusal to obey God. However, I believe that this punishment is not to pay for their sins (that's already been done by Christ), but, rather, as chastisement to bring them to a place of repentance. Some He will bring to repentance through an act of love. Some He will bring to repentance in the fiery trials of a combat foxhole. And some He will bring to repentance in the torments of Hades. But ultimately all will be brought to repentance through His sovereign will.

And another:

Question:
If there are millions of souls suffering eternal death, how will death finally be abolished?

 

I don't know. You'll have to ask Young.

The word is aiwnion, which means perpetual, everlasting, etc. It is based on the Greek root word from which we get the word aeon, which is "an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time".

In other words, it's not "age-during", at least not the way we understand "age-during" to mean today.

 

Calvinist dude: Please find scripture to prove the following:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
7) The wicked getting their names written back into the book of life.
8) Nor can we find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on the wicked in the
afterlife or that His judgment is anything short of final and fixed for all eternity.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.

 

For #1:

First, sins aren't forgiven at the moment of your regeneration. Your sins were forgiven at the Cross. Any judgment or actions that God takes against those who were redeemed in Christ is merely to draw them to Him. So anyone saved in the afterlife already had their sins forgiven at the Cross.

#2
Ezekiel 16:53-55
53 "Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54 in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55 Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will {also} return to your former state.

Contrast that with:
2 Peter 2:6
and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; (If they are condemned to destruction, how can they be restored to their former state, if that destruction is everlasting?)

Matt. 11:23
Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. (How can eternal punishment be more tolerable than someone else’s eternal punishment?)

#3
This an inference from all the many passages that clearly tell us that Christ will save all of mankind, but that not everyone is going to be saved in this age.
I listed these before, but I will list them again:

1 Tim. 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1 Cor.15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Rom. 5:18-19
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

#4
I never said or implied this. I believe the wicked who do not accept Christ in this age will be judged. Hades is real, and many will go there. However, we can rejoice because our Scriptures inform us that these torments are only “ages enduring.” Not forever.

#5

Again, inferred from #3.

#6

Ditto, #5.

#7

The book of life is age specific, referencing the elect of this age who do not encounter the second death.

#8

1 Cor. 15: 25-26
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

If eternal condemnation is considered death (“the second death”), then it must be abolished at some point for this verse to be fulfilled. Do we really think that God can say that Jesus abolishes death while untold millions are still suffering eternal separation (death) from God?

#9
I plead ignorance on this one. All of the verses that can be referenced regarding universal salvation apply only to humankind. I will concede that. I don’t know what the final fate of fallen angels will be. Sorry.

Consider this quote from Andrew Jukes. It is taken from The Restitution of All Things It is rather lengthy, but makes an excellent point about how the eternal condemnation of sinners cries against every reasoning about justice that we can muster even in our sinful state:

 

</font>[/QUOTE]No. It claims that at the writing of the text you had the SAVED and you also had those who were lost - but would one day ALSO be saved. NEVER does it supose that AFTER DEATH they can "get saved" which is the salient point in your argument that you need to "prove" rather than continually assume.

God is the savior of the world - there is NO other, He died for ALL and He gives to all the free will to CHOOSE life. But ALL do not choose life. As long as God really did DIE for ALL and as long as He ENABLES all to choose then it is STILL true that He is the savior of the WORLD. That alone establishes it as fact.

Your argument that this is insufficient to support the claim that he is savior of the World - is not reasonable or logical. You extend the point far beyond what you can reasonably establish.

You "assume" this extension in each of your quotes rather than "proving" it is in the text.

And the test case I gave above is abundant proof of this point. You never do find a text saying that AFTER someone dies they can be saved OR that after they go to the lake of fire they get eternal life. You merely insert it as an assumption into other texts that make NO MENTION AT ALL of the lake of fire or hell.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This makes no sense. He cannot be the Saviour of people who do not get saved. That would make those people the "unsaved saved" which is an oxymoron.

No it is not. If they aren't saved from eternal damnation then God didn't save them.

You are the one who is twisting these texts to say something they don't. They say that God is the Saviour of all men. You say that He is but He is not. That is a total distortion of these verses. If Christ paid for the sins of every human, then every human must go to heaven. It would be unjust for God to exact a payment from His Son for sins that are going to be paid for by the individual themselves. Does their unbelief count as a sin? If so, then it is covered by Christ's blood and they go to heaven. If not, then Christ did not die for all sins. Either Christ died for the sins of a limited group who will then attain eternal life, or He died for the sins of everyone, who will attain eternal life. There is no middle ground. Those verses above attest to the fact that He died for all, thus, all will attain salvation.

Let me ask you this. While Jesus was dying on the cross, atoning for the sins of mankind, was He paying for the sins of people who had already died and gone to hell? If so, why, since the person is already making the payment themselves?

 

Calvinists are swimming against the current by saying that Jesus only died for His elect souls. Everything hinges on believing or refusing to believe. [Acts 2:21; Acts 10:34-35; 17:30; John 3:16; I Timothy 2:6; Deuteronomy 5:29; Romans 5:18; Isaiah 45:21-22; 47:4; Galatians 2:6; and I Peter 3:18 for starts.

For example, in the last reference God did not say through Peter the fisher of men that 'Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the elect, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.' Jesus died as the just One for the 'unjust.'

As Biblical theology/Arminianism's second point suggests, God has predestinated the Elect, contingent on those who will have received His Son.

Dr. Berrian

 

Here is an interesting, short and concise view of Arminianism.

WHAT IS ARMINIANISM ?

Arminianism is the system of doctrine taught by James Arminius, a Dutch theologian, who was born in A.D. 1560, and died in A.D. 1609. George Whitefield, a powerful Calvinistic or predestinarian Methodist preacher of England during the 18th Century, who also preached in the United States, said that all of us, by nature, are Arminians, that is, that all of us, like heathens, untaught of God, believe that we can save ourselves. As I have shown, on page 335 of my Church History, all Non-Catholics of the Dark Ages, before the invention of printing, when they had no Bibles, seem to have been Arminians; and so were the Baptists of the early part of the 17th Century, and at first the Churches of the Ketocton Association, until they were taught the way of God more perfectly (Church History, page 336). They were babes in grace, unable to eat strong meat; they were like nine of the ten cleansed lepers, and, though cleansed by Christ, they did not give proper glory to God. Though enabled by Christ to see, their sight was very imperfect--they saw men as trees walking. And so now the great majority of nominal Protestants, and even those called Baptists, though they may have been born of the Holy Spirit, in Europe and the United States, are unscripturally taught, and are Arminians. Of course, many have, like the most of the Catholics, never been Spiritually renewed; and we expect them to believe in salvation by forms and profession and dead works (the works of those who are dead in trespasses and sin). But since the middle of the 18th Century, I do not know of any Primitive or Old School Baptists who are Arminians; if there are any, I do not know of them. For there are none who believe in these five points of Arminianism; 1, Conditional Election (that is election unto salvation dependent upon foreseen repentance, faith, and obedience); 2, Universal Redemption (that Christ died for all human beings, but that only those who repent and believe and obey will be saved); 3, Universal Regeneration (that all human beings are born of the Holy Spirit, and can therefore repent, believe and obey); 4, The Resistibility of God's grace (that those sinners who have His grace may resist or frustrate it); 5, The Possibility of losing God's grace (that those who have it may fall from it and finally perish). I never heard any of our ministers preach these errors.


The exact opposite of Arminianism is called Calvinism (because taught so powerfully and unanswerably by John Calvin, born in Picardy in Northern France in 1509, and died in 1564.) This system of doctrine is called also Augustianism, from Augustine, the oldest of the Catholic writers--born in northern Syria in 354, died in 430, but it is improperly so called, because he taught with it Sacramentalism, the necessity of being baptized into the Catholic so-called "Church", and the Catholics soon abandoned the doctrine of salvation by grace, and adopted the doctrine of salvation by works, and their works became the worst in the world. Calvinism is called most properly Paulinism, because taught most clearly by the Apostle Paul. This doctrine is the doctrine of the Holy Scriptures; and, at the time of the American Revolution, it is said that three-fourth of the people of the United States believed it, and they were more truthful, honest, moral and Godly than they have been since. It is the doctrine of all real Primitive Baptists, and consists of the following five points, viz.--1, God's unconditional election of His people to eternal salvation; 2, Their particular and effectual redemption by the atoning death of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, for them; 3, Their certain regeneration by His Holy Spirit; 4, The efficiency of His grace in their salvation; 5, The certainty of their preservation to eternal glory.


Only those who deny these Five Points can truthfully be called Arminians.


Sylvester Hassell. 1926

 

Very interesting quote, UMP, thanks.

 

GH,
I have been out of town and have not had a chance to look at all of your posts. For the sake of clarity would you please restate why you do not accept the passages of scripture which speak of eternal torment.

In Christ

 

Hi Southern,

I think anything less than a total victory isn't a victory for Christ. The scriptures that Bob quoted are definitely in question for me. As I have found that the traditions of men have made the word of no avail. Mistranslations, misinterpretations and control have clouded the simplicity of the gospel of Christ. A Christ whose hands are tied because men have made the wrong decision and therefore must be sent to hell for eternity.

I don't think you're shallow - anyone who seeks understanding is quite wise in my book.

May springs of Living Water well up inside you and may God grant you understanding.

BTW, we posted at the same time above, if you'll notice. The hymn is just my way of lifting up our almighty, all-powerful, loving God. A God who destroys sin and death. A life-giving God Who makes all things new.

I praise Him \o/ </font>[/QUOTE]Hello again Southern,

Above is my response to your question.

Paganism crept into the church about 1700 years ago. Things began to change considerably after that.

God reveals Himself in His Word. Organized religion has set itself up as a mediator, translater, and interpreter of His Word. Most times what we receive from religion is regurgitated manna handed down from generation to generation. It is stale bread and has no LIFE in it.

God is love - 1 John 4:8

Love never fails - 1 Cor. 13-8

He is able to do EXCEEDINGLY MORE than you could ask or imagine. Eph 3:20

In this God Who IS Love we live and move and have our being.

Psalm 66:4 All the earth bows down to you; they sing praise to you, they sing praise to your name." Selah

Psalm 9:2 I will be glad and rejoice in you; I will sing praise to your name, O Most High.

I praise Him \o/

 

Your response mainly hinged on something that I do not disagree and does not answer the verses that teach eternal punishment.

Your answer was pretty much, "God is love", of which I would agree (not to mention JW's, Mormons and just about anybody would make this claim with a hearty amen), but we have to let the Bible define what love is.

Thanks for the input
In Christ,