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arminianism, calvinism, and universalism

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by gabe, Jul 24, 2004.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That "What is Arminianism" quote was pretty sad.

    Would have been useful if it had been an accurate statement of the Arminian position.

    For example - it is one thing to object to the Calvinist TULIP - but at least we don't have to pretend that we don't even know what it is.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Bob Ryan said:

    Oh, don't kid yourself. You don't have the slightest idea what TULIP really means. You know what you heard , and you know what others say, but, you have not made an in-depth, unbiased study of what the Doctrines of Grace are.

    Of which, I ask again, what personality does a Seventh Day Adventist such as yourself who adheres to Law keeping have in identifying yourself with Arminians who at least understand that salvation is never through keeping of law.

    It's like having a communist taking sides with somebody in a debate about whether a Theocracy is better than a democracy. He believes in neither.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    pinoybaptist - I am not sure that you said anything in that last post. Did you have an actual point?

    (Aside from not liking my church of course. I think I "get" that part.)

    If you are trying to say that my posts are not Arminian - please support your accusation with something like "evidence". Or are you simply saying that you don't feel I am Arminian -- rather than actually having a specific post, or point?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. gabe

    gabe New Member

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    Hi Bob,

    You wrote:

    First, let me emphasize that I agree with you that the gift of salvation must be freely accepted. That being said, I'm not sure that I see the logical possibility of all three propositions being true.

    If God both purposes to save all mankind, and has the power to to so, then would it not logically follow that everyone will freely come to Faith in Christ?

    Thanks for the contributions, and this really is an excellent discussion.

    -Gabe
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This one is true because God states His Will in 2Peter 3 and Provides for His stated Will in 1John 2:2 (becoming the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for those of the entire World).

    In 2Cor 5 the point is made that in Christ God was reconciling the world unto Himself. And so "WE beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"..

    So clearly #1 is correct.

    This is true on several accounts.

    #1. It is within His power to provide the Atoning Sacrifice not just for SOME but for ALL -- and He did.

    #2. It is within His power to "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgement" not just for some but for ALL -- and He does.

    #3. It is within His power to "DRAW ALL MANKIND unto HIm" - not just some - but ALL - and He does.

    #4. It is wihint His power to "FORCE the minds of all humans to do whatever He wants" And He chooses NOT to do that - because this would be inconsistent with His own choice to make the basis of this "WHosoever WILL" .

    Also true. We see this in Rev 20. We see it in Rev 14 and we see it in Matt 10 where God is the one who "Destroys BOTH body AND soul in hell fire".

    The wages of sin - is the torment and suffering destruction and death - we call - the second death.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. GH

    GH New Member

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    Hi Southern,

    I know, I know - God is love........BUT.

    I'm not into Mormanism or any other ism.....really. Just a Christian lady who has come to see God's merciful love - even in His judgments.

    God will reconcile the world. "For as in Adam ALL die so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER." (I Cor. 15:22,23)

    In His love, Diane

    I praise HIM \o/
     
  7. gabe

    gabe New Member

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    Hi again Bob

    We are in complete agreement on #1, I am happy to report. ;)

    We are also in agreement in regards to #2, but perhaps with this exception: I don't see man's freewill and God's sovereign will as mutually exclusive notions. Man's free act of submitting to God's will is God's means on accomplishing His purpose, as I see it. So again, I don't see how the three propositions could possibily be logically compatible. And come to think of it, doesn't the Bible affirm that God works all things according to the pleasure of His will?

    Indeed, the wicked shall perish. Yet, I do not see the biblical evidence that would suggest that these unregenerate individuals will not be restored. On the contrary, I see much evidence to the contrary. For now, however, I'd like to focus on the logical dilemma which is the basis of this thread.

    Thanks again for the chat.

    -Gabe
     
  8. Calvinist Dude

    Calvinist Dude New Member

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    BobRyan said:
    If this is true, then explain these passages:

    Jude 1:7
    just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    Ezek. 16:55
    Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will {also} return to your former state.

    If Sodom is undergoing the punishment of "eternal" fire, how then is it going to be returned to its former state?
     
  9. gabe

    gabe New Member

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    Calvinistdude!

    Very cool to meet a reformed universalist. May I ask, what do you consider reformed theology to be?

    Anyhow, may I play devil's advocate?

    The passage in Ezekiel 16:55 is actually speaking of Judah and Israel, under the figure of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is part of an extended parable which covers a few chapters, which is why people invariably miss this.

    -Gabe
     
  10. Calvinist Dude

    Calvinist Dude New Member

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    In my experience, it's very cool to meet any universalist. ;)

    Like the Reformed Pastor Jan Bonda, the man who wrote that excellent treatise on universalism, The One Purpose of God, I have maintained my reformed beliefs as a universalist, minus the belief of an elect portion of humanity who will attain salvation. There are two distinctives in reformed theology that I think are important and they are the reason that I still consider myself "reformed."

    The first is covenantalism, which is at the core of reformed theology. This is the idea that the Church is the extension of Israel and the old covenant, indeed, we are now Israel. That is why most reformed adherents reject the idea that national Israel has any place in God's purpose. Paul couldn't be any clearer that a Jew is one inwardly, not nationally; thus, the Church is Israel for today, and Christians are the sons of Abraham. Like most reformed Christians, I believe that Israel will one day be brought back into the covenant. But even that will occur through the Church. Israel will not be restored back to the Temple practices and the OT blood rituals. Those were fulfilled by Christ's atonement. There will be no temple built in Israel, again, like the dispensationalists imagine.

    This continuance of the covenant is also why reformed theology places an emphasis on infant inclusion in the covenant. It is abundant throughout the OT that the children of God's covenant people were included into the covenant community as part of their birthright. Thus, they were given the sign of the covenant immediately after birth. Since we are a continuation of that covenant, this principle still stands, which is why we baptize our infant children. They are part of God's covenant community (the Church) and should be treated as such. Reformed Christians raise their children as believers and active participants in the church, not as unbelievers who are to be pressured into making some kind of confession of faith. We don't read anywhere where the OT Jews treated their children as anything other than believers, from their birth onward.

    The second distinctive that I think is important is reformed theology's emphasis on the sovereignty of God. God controls everything, including how and when everyone will be saved. We don't come to Christ, He comes to us and draws us. We would not believe unless He gave us the power to do so. In this sense I am still Calvinistic. I just reject limited atonement because I believe everyone is going to be saved. But all of humanity will get saved because God draws (in the Greek, the word is literally "drag") "all men to Him." In fact, universal salvation would be nigh to impossible if God left it to man's free will. The only reason I'm a universalist is because I do believe that God does everything in the act of salvation.

    As an aside, the verses about election refer to this church age only. God has divinely elected a limited group of people to bring to salvation in this age, and to evangelise the nations. They will be the first to partake of His blessings in the coming age. So that is why I still believe in election and the other four points of Calvinism.

    Woooo!! :eek: Didn't mean to write a book. These two fundamentals, in a very small nutshell, are why I still consider myself "reformed" in spite of being a universalist.

    I will have to wait till a later post to answer your question about the Ezekiel passage.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. Lucifer -- the covering cherub "chooses" sin over obedience... God has a choice - will he ALLOW Lucifer to fall? Will He "pay the price of free will"??? Does He know "this will ultimately cost Him 1/3 of the angels"??/

    Yes. Yes. and Yes.

    God "pays the price" for allowing free will from the very start.

    #2. Lucifer then tempts Adam and Eve..
    Will God "Allow Adam and Eve free will"?
    Does He "know what it will cost"?
    Does He know He will lose all of humanity if He allows free will now?

    Yes. Yes. and YES.

    God pays the huge price of allowing free will - even then.

    #3. God then chooses - sovereignly chooses to continue to protect free will by supernaturally DRAWING ALL MANKIND to Himself. He is not willing for ANY to perish but STILL this is in the context of HIS choice for free will.

    But the "MANY" of Matt 7 will refuse - will say no "anyway".
    Does God STILL allow their free will choice EVEN though He has paid for the sins of the world in His own blood?

    Does He know it will cost him the "MANY" of Matt 7 if He continues to persevere IN HIS sovereign choice of free will?

    Is He STILL willing to pay such a high price??

    Yes. Yes. and YES.

    At any point along the way HE COULD have pithed Lucifer's brain, or the brains of 1/3 of the angels, or Adam and Eve's or the MANY of Matt 7 -- but IN EVERY case -- He does not.

    Though He "CAN" and He "has the POWER" to do so.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BobRyan said:
    Well the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah were "really destroyed" by "real eternal fire" that "really came down from God" and "really consumed them". They did not "recover from that" and go on to live healthy normal lives. They were destroyed and never rebuilt. Really destroyed. Really burned. By Real eternal fire from God. HOWEVER - the citizens of Soddom and Gomorrah WILL STILL be raised in the Rev 20 2nd resurrection after the REAL 1000 years and will be case into the REAL lake of fire which is the REAL second death.

    Those cities are not still "aflame" though they were destroyed by REAL "eternal fire".

    I don't see how this is in any way opposed to what I have been saying.


    Ezek. 16:55
    Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will {also} return to your former state.


    This snippet is sometimes raised out of context to support (in a very oblique way) the idea that the destroyed people of Abraham's day would one day return to live in Sodom. But this fails when read chapter 16.

    Ezek 16
    46 "Now your older sister is Samaria, who lives north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lives south of you, is Sodom with her daughters.


    #1. One simple question -- WHO was living south of Israel at the time Ezekiel was writing? WAS it the people of Abraham's day that were destroyed in the eternal fire sent down by God on Sodom?

    Obviously not.

    This then obliterates the attempt to turn this back and reinvent it as the description of that generation living in the days of Abraham in Sodom. And once that it seen clearly - then so also we see that the basis for people-in-hell going to heaven (weak as that is if THIS text is used to make it) fails with it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Where is it in the bible that satans name was/is lucifer?

    the isaiah passage calls the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) ..Lucifer

    Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

    Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    still more confusion running amuk???.

    Satan was made by God as an "evil" serpent.. not a man.(gen 3:1)

    Me2
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    by Me2:



    Was the king of Babylon ever in heaven ?

    How about this Scripture:

    Are these scriptures talking of two persons, or just one ?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    All true.

    And lets be honest - a lot of Baptist "Get this" clear teaching about Satan that we find in Isaiah 14 and in Ezek 28.

    I don't understand why it is even called into question here.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. gabe

    gabe New Member

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    Dear Bob,

    I agree with your points about freewill. In this we share common ground.

    Indeed, God was prepared to accept the consequences of man's abuse of freewill. But I'm not seeing any reason to suppose that this abuse might entail the eternal loss of God's loved ones. Could you spell your logic out a bit more for me? And what do you make of my latest remarks concerning the logical incompatibility of the three propositions?

    Gabe
     
  17. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Pinoybaptist,

    not in the form of the king of babylon.

    but the former king of babylon covered over by the annointed spirit of Christ.. In Heaven before the physical creation...the image was created in its absolute form complete with all men within it.

    including the king of babylon and the time he spent in our finite timeline. he was changed then.

    What does God say about his creative planning?

    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    God starts with telling man. the end has already been completed before man witnesses to its beginning. the king was in heaven. he fell in unrighteousness through adams corporal choice. the scriptures is speaking to the carnal spirit of Nebuchadnezzar.
    much like calling one man as the antichrist spirit. the collective viewpoint.

    Im not following your question.. I counted a son, a virgen, two (both) kings and the Lord.

    BobRyan,

    The same spirit is being called into question. man was created complete in the image called in christ. It is God who empties out this image into vanity (death), so that man comes to the understanding of Who they are and Who their God is.
    man was made complete in the image called "in Christ" before time began.

    God is declaring the end from the beginning to the elect.

    What you have done was to preach that satan was created righteous and of his own free will fell from this state of righteousness. when the scriptures speak in many places that he was made not abiding in the truth, from the beginning. a serpent. a murderer, a liar. yet you fail to equate man as having any spirit history before adams physical existence in eden. adam began in eden as innocent not understanding good or evil. (yet he existed in the image that God had created in absolute time, in eternity. "in christ".)

    what do you think when God states that man is being reconciled.. re conciled back into what?
    reconciled back "in Christ"...the image that he first started from.

    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    everyone came from the image. placed into vanity..and will return back into the image called "in christ"..or eternal life.

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    Me2
     
  18. gabe

    gabe New Member

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    Me2,

    Wonderful thoughts.
     
  19. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    If one were to look at this image. one would first see the author and finisher. which is Christ.
    (heb 12:2)

    one would see that Christ is the beginning..the alpha and the ending..the omega. (Rev 22:13)


    Col 1:16 all things created by and for him

    Rev 4:11 Eph 3:9 that Christ created all things for his pleasure

    Col 1:17, Heb 1:3 All things consist by his power

    1 tim 6:13 Quickeneth all things

    2 Col 5:18 all things are of, and to be reconciled back to Christ

    Col 1:20 reconciles all things in heaven and in the earth

    Phi 3:21 able to subdue all things unto himself
    Eph 4:10 fills all things (heaven and earth)

    Eph 1:10 in the fullness of time, will gather all things to himself

    Rom 11:36 all things are of him, through him and (back) to him

    one quick glance would give the impression that all things (creation) was, is, and will be created to be a part of this image.
    and all things are to be quickened and reconciled back into this image.


    thats all Things..All Wonderful TRUTHS..

    Me2
     
  20. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    GH,
    You said:
    Hi Southern,

    I know, I know - God is love........BUT.

    I'm not into Mormanism or any other ism.....really. Just a Christian lady who has come to see God's merciful love - even in His judgments.

    God will reconcile the world. "For as in Adam ALL die so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER." (I Cor. 15:22,23)

    In His love, Diane

    I praise HIM \o/

    Me: Let me first say that this still does not address the verses dealing with eternal punishment
    (Mat. 18:8;2 Thess. 1:9;Jude 7) and verses dealing with the fact that all are not saved (Rom. 9:27). I must ask, what is your view on these verses. I would be glad to discuss 1 Cor. 15 with you but must first understand if you actually think the Bible contradicts itself.

    In Christ
     
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