Arminianism is flawed by a serious contradiction!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by rufus, Mar 1, 2003.

  1. rufus

    rufus
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    As a theological system Arminianism tries to mediate between the supralapsarianism of Beza, who taught that God willed the fall of man in order to accomplish his decrees, and the Pelagian view, which denied original sin, regarding grace as unnecessary for salvation.

    Arminianism is flawed by a serious contradiction: on the one hand it affirms predestination and grace, while on the other hand denying it or gutting it of any real significance by asserting that it is conditional upon man's free will.

    The theologian Otto Heick describes Arminianism as an oxymoron, an "absolute conditionalism":

    "God in his decrees is conditioned by man's free will -

    Man in his search for salvation is conditioned by God's grace".

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  2. William C

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    Forgiveness of sins is conditional

    In the Lord's Prayer; receiving forgiveness from from God is joined to forgiving others (Matt. 6:12; Lk 11:4). Jesus' parable of the unmerciful servant makes the point that human beings are obliged to forgive because God has forgiven them (Matt. 18:23-35). God's forgivness is actually said to be conditional upon forgiving others (Matt. 6:14; 18:35; Mk 11:25-26; Lk 6:37)
     
  3. rufus

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    Arminius --In rejecting Calvinism, and in the attempt to construct his own scheme of beliefs, Arminius made the fatal mistake of mixing Pelagian dogma with the Scriptures.

    PELAGIUS -- Early in the fifth century, the English monk Pelagius sought to reform the Roman Catholic Church. He thus became a life-long theological antagonist of Augustine. Pelagius insisted that man did not inherit Adam's sinfulness, but was only affected by his example. He believed that man's will was free to choose for, or against, God. Hence, via Arminius, we have our present-day "Christian humanism," i.e., man is master of his fate, with God's help--if he chooses it.

    ARMINIANISM TODAY -- Coming from humanistic Pelagianism instead of from the Scriptures, Arminianism bases salvation upon the will of fallen man. It is an anti-sovereignty, anti-security, anti-dispensational, anti-grace, pro-works religion. The teaching is that God, through redemption, bestows a "common grace" upon all men, thereby making it possible for the individual to exercise his free will either for, or against, God.

    FREE WILL? -- According to Arminianism, man is not totally depraved--his will remains free to decide his own destiny. Its maxim is, "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist." To Arminianism, "foreknowledge" means that God foreknows those who will receive the Saviour, and upon that basis He elects them. Those who choose to reject the Saviour, He condemns.

    Since the final decision is made by man, and God then acts upon that decision, man is sovereign. In that case, God determines nothing, He gives nothing except so-called common grace which removes the inability to choose Him, and He secures nothing.

    Thus the sinner's choice of God, and not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate factor in Arminian salvation. Those elected by God are chosen only in the sense that He foresaw their faith and good works--which arise from themselves and are not wrought of God. The human will is exalted to the place of sovereignty and, according to this system, man becomes his own saviour.

    As Dr. A.H. Strong wrote, "It is important to understand that, in Arminian usage, grace is simply the restoration of man's natural ability to act for himself; grace never actually saves him, but only enables him to save himself ... if he will.

    SOVEREIGN MAN? -- In that the Arminian begins on the premise of his own free will, his end is on the same assumption. He feels that since he can come in, he can therefore go out, by his free will. What little security and assurance of salvation he has is founded upon his own momentary merit, plus whatever emotional experiences he can muster along the way.

    Doctrinally established unconditional eternal security grounded upon faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ is utterly rejected by the Arminian. He sedulously avoids all Scripture that establishes eternal security, or at best seeks to discredit and deny it. He gravitates to out-of-context references that seem to him to militate against eternal security.

    Arminianism's misleading error in the field of salvation is that it persists in attempting to build the Christian's standing upon his feeble and faltering daily life, rather than on the sufficient and immutable merit of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Arminian salvation becomes little more than a system of human conduct; for, though the idea of regeneration is incorporated, it is, in the Arminian idea of it, of no abiding value, being supported only by a supposed human merit. --L.S. Chafer (Systematic Theology III:356)

    SEMI-PELAGIANISM -- Through a process of modification, Pelagianism spawned Semi-Pelagianism. It has been described as follows:

    Though it retained much of the philosophical basis of its parent's humanism and rationalism, as opposed to divine revelation, Semi-Pelagianism compromised with truth sufficiently to gain favorable audience with some Christians. It became, thus, a far more dangerous form of infidelity than its parent. As such, it eventually overcame the Roman Catholic Church and returned it to the very Pelagianism condemned by Augustine. Semi-Pelagianism changed its disguise and further altered its voice at a later date to become known as Arminianism, following some refinements and adjustments to Christianity.

    Dr. Lorraine Boettner has stated:

    Arminianism existed for centuries only as a heresy in the outskirts of true Christianity. In fact, it was not championed by an organized Christian Church until the year 1784, at which time it was incorporated into the system of doctrine of the Methodist Church in England by John Wesley.

    Today, Christendom has been overrun by Arminianism. It has been spread mainly by the Pentecostal and Holiness movements, and especially by the out-of-control Charismatic movement. Then too, there is the influence of the many Arminian denominations, such as the Assembly of God, Nazarene, Mennonite, Christian & Missionary Alliance, and many others.

    Almost all truly born-again Christians begin as Arminians, with their "free will" and their self-centered life and service for "Jesus." The tragedy is that far too many never get beyond that baby stage, but go on into the fleshly emotionalism of full-fledged charismatic Arminianism.

    A clearer view of Arminianism may be gained from the following listing:

    Human depravity has not rendered man incapable of savingly exercising his will to trust Jesus for salvation.

    God's grace is resistible in the final sense so that man can ultimately thwart His purpose to save him.

    God's election is conditioned upon His divine foresight of faith in certain men whom God, then, designates as His elect.

    Jesus' atonement was exactly the same for everyone with no discrimination whatever, rendering all men savable, but actually guaranteeing the salvation of none.

    Final salvation is possible for believers, but ultimate victory rests with their continuance in faith, so that ultimate apostasy may be possible for the saved.

    STATEMENT -- Dominated by the free will of man, Arminianism is characterized by fleshly lawlessness. The Arminian's center and object is himself. It is all to be rejected! "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them who cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  4. William C

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    First, you ignored my post and the scriptures I present.

    Calvinist assume that Arminians must be "self-centered" simply because we believe we are responsible to respond to the call of the gospel. Silly of us to assume that we are responsible for something God holds us responsible for.

    Calvinists, with their overgrown egos, assume that they must be more educated or more spiritually mature because they have obtained this new knowledge that others just haven't grasped because they are in the "baby stage." They look at the extremist of the group and label us all by their teachings. This is absurd!!!

    How would you like it if I did the same to Calvinists.

    "Its tragic that Calvinist take the scriptures teaching of God's sovereignty to such an extreme that they don't even believe that evangelism is necessary."

    Is that true of some Calvinists? Yes. Is it true of most? NO!

    So please don't start this crud!

    Isn't it interesting that this guy says that most truly born again believers start out as Arminians. Why? Because the Bible presents the gospel in such a way that leads one to believe the decision is in their hands. But, in reality, it wasn't in their hands at all.

    Do you see what this guy is saying.

    The bible deceives people. It makes them think they are responsible to make a decision but in reality it is God who makes the decision. So, the Bible is leading people to beleive a lie. But, that's ok, because once you become "spiritually mature" like the rest of us Calvinists you can figure out the hidden truth behind the deceptive call of the gospel.

    Rufus, you make this same argument with the analogy of the signs in front of the house. If your view is right, then signs in front of the house lead people to believe a lie while the signs inside the house straighten them out. Are their two parts of the Bible, the deceptive part and the truthful part? Apparently so, in your view!

    THIS COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG!
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    If a more Arminian view is flawed, please, give us one at a time so we can clear your mind. Here is your challenge.
     
  6. Yelsew

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    Well, everyone knows why I am not Calvinist, now everyone knows why I am not Armenian. I hold to NEITHER of these doctrines.
     
  7. rufus

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    WHEN A SYSTEM HAS A CONTRADICTION, IT IS AUTOMATICALLY LOGICALLY FALLACIOUS AND FACTUALLY FALSE.

    I repeat: Arminianism is FALSE because it is CONTRADICTORY!!
     
  8. William C

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    I agree. A system that has signs outside the "house" that leads people to believe a lie and then corrects that lie once they get inside the "house" is a system that has a contradiction and is factually false.

    There is more that one way to understand predestination.

    1. In Christ view-- This teaches that all you are "in Christ" are predestined to the already determined ends, but people are still required to place their faith in Christ. Some use an analogy of a airplane that is "predestined" to fly to New York but its the will of the passagengers to get on that plane.

    2. Foresight Faith view -- This view teaches that God knows all future events and knows those who will have faith and therefore predestines them to salvation based upon his foreknowledge. This does not mean God controls these events, just that he sees them.

    3. First Fruits view -- This view teaches that Paul's words in Eph and Romans concerning Predestination have the Remnant in view. Those who were selected out of Israel for a specific purpose and who avoided the Hardening process.

    4. Calvinistic view -- I'm sure you are aware of this one.

    (There are some other views that handle things a bit differently)
     
  9. Eric B

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    Maybe I should post the lengthy sections of Calvin's Institutes totally obliterating any real "security". God gives people a false or partial faith and takes it away. If you become "sloth" and fail to "persevere", you are one of these. So you must work to "persevere" to be saved. Can anyone know now that they are "actually" saved? No, but they keep throwing this "actuality" rhetoric at Arminians! Many Calvinistic churches and preaching has been very legalistic or "pro works" because of this. Talk about "self-contradiction"!
    Both sides will admit that there are seemingly irreconcilable polarities that cannot be figured out this side of eternity. But Calvinism uses this concept to cover up total absurdity. Their fatal mistake was speculating on God's eternal decrees and trying to mix eternity with time.
    And with all of these statements, people still cry "misrepresentation" at Hunt and others, which is nowhere near what they say about Arminianism.
     
  10. rufus

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    Bro. Bill, the ONLY view I care about is the BIBLICAL VIEW.

    Your interpretive method is different than mine (as I pointed out a while back)and therefore your conclusions are different than mine.

    The inductive inferences of all the relevant passages dealing with this issue result in the doctrine that men are dead in sins and do not seek God; rather God seeks men in Christ and quickens (makes alive) some of them by the Spirit through the Gospel. The ability to believe is just as much a gift from God as is the grace upon which salvation is based.

    The conditional Free Will of Man position is at odds with the Good Book and is internally contradictoy and therefore unbiblical and false.

    Since do not use the same hermenuetical principles of exegesis, I seriously doubt we will ever AGREE! on this issue. Different hermenuetical starting points will lead to different interpretive conclusions.

    Be safe in the Lord, Bro. Bill and I pray He blesses you and yours.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  11. rufus

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    Bro. Bill, the ONLY view I care about is the BIBLICAL VIEW.

    Your interpretive method is different than mine (as I pointed out a while back)and therefore your conclusions are different than mine.

    The inductive inferences of all the relevant passages dealing with this issue result in the doctrine that men are dead in sins and do not seek God; rather God seeks men in Christ and quickens (makes alive) some of them by the Spirit through the Gospel. The ability to believe is just as much a gift from God as is the grace upon which salvation is based.

    The conditional Free Will of Man position is at odds with the Good Book and is internally contradictory and therefore is unbiblical and false.

    Since we do not use the same hermenuetical principles of exegesis, I seriously doubt we will ever AGREE! on this issue. Different hermenuetical starting points will lead to different interpretive conclusions.

    Be safe in the Lord, Bro. Bill and I pray He blesses you and yours.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  12. William C

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    Rufus, how are these opinions of me different from any Arminian on this board. The reason you refuse to engage in debate with me is because your "pat answers" won't work on me. Heaven forbid that you actually have to think before you responded to a post.

    But If you don't wish to engage at our points of contention I understand. That's your free willed choice! [​IMG]

    Have fun avoiding Arminians that challenge you.

    God bless and have a great life,
    Bill [​IMG]
     
  13. Scott J

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    "I'm your huckleberry."

    I don't spend that much time in this forum but there is no need for any calvinists to avoid arminian challenges. Calvinism is biblical sotierology. Arminianism is an exercise in free will :D to try to reconcile scripture to presuppositions about what is fair on God's part.

    I have never seen a biblical text that can be answered by arminianism but not by calvinism when accepted in its normal sense. However on numerous occasions, I have witnessed non-calvinists twist and contort clear scripture (such as Romans 8:28-30 recently discussed) until it no longer resembles itself in an effort to maintain the sovereignty of man in salvation.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    No one has said that man has sovereignty, this is a figment of your imagination. It is not the Non-Calvinist that takes a single verse or part of a verse out of its context to become a proof text of doctrine, but it is the Calvinist mode of operation to do so.
     
  15. romanbear

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    Hi Scot J;
    A quote from you;
    ---------------------------------------------
    I don't spend that much time in this forum but there is no need for any calvinists to avoid arminian challenges.
    -------------------------------------------------

    Why is it I get the idea that every Calvinist likes to boast about there Suppressive doctrine.
    Like they only,have truth. Typically cultic. If you think you are 100% correct in your doctrine then why lower your self to come here and post to a bunch of humble Arminians. We Arminians wouldn't want you to waste your time.
    Romanbears
     
  16. Scott J

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    I would thank you for reading the message I responded to before judging me. Bro. Bill claimed that a calvinist was avoiding arminian challenges.

    Personally, I seldom find arminians more humble than calvinists. In fact, it is an elevated view of one's own will that begins to define the boundary between us.

    Truth is about what the Bible says or doesn't say. I stated my truthful experience and rather than dealing with it you chose to attack me personally. Why?
     
  17. Scott J

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    Please feel free to list an example of calvists doing this. There is a thread below started by PTW where someone ripped Romans 8:29 from its context then objected when I supplied verses 28 and 30.

    If salvation is dependent upon man's free will choice then who is sovereign in the matter? God cannot be if His will can be thwarted by man's choice. Man must be if the outcome is completely under his authority.
     
  18. Baptist Believer

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    WHEN A SYSTEM HAS A CONTRADICTION, IT IS AUTOMATICALLY LOGICALLY FALLACIOUS AND FACTUALLY FALSE.

    I repeat: Arminianism is FALSE because it is CONTRADICTORY!!
    </font>[/QUOTE]So Greek-inspired logic is the guiding principle of the universe and the basis for analyzing religious truth?

    I'm glad to see that Calvinists recognize that their doctrine is rooted in rationalistic thought. :D The fatal flaw of Calvinist thinking is the assumption that doctrinal truth has to be logically acceptable to the human mind for it to be valid. That, my friends, is idolatry of the human mind. :(
     
  19. rufus

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    Bro.Bill said: "Have fun avoiding Arminians that challenge you."

    rufus says: "lol"

    I wonder if Bro. Bill has read any of the numerous rufus post avoiding Arminians challenging him.

    Bro. Bill, happy Scripture twisting and keep on using the ad hominem statements, which roll off this old preacher like water on a duck's back. I assure you. Can't win the argument, abuse the man making the argument. Too bad.

    I have some nice exegetical tools I'll be happy to share with you, if you are really interested in truth finding, good sir.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    Have you noticed how much the arminians appeal to logic ... about how God can't be fair when he chooses only some, about how God can't be loving when he chooses only some, about how the sovereign God must be the author of sin in spite of hte fact that Scripture clearly says otherwise.

    As a whole, calvinists are willing to let the tensions in Scripture stand. It is the arminians who have to work out all the logical problems.
     

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