Arminianism Ultimately Leads to Open Theology

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Hardsheller, Mar 18, 2003.

  1. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
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    It is my contention that Arminianism (Free Will-ism)ultimately and logically leads to Open Theology.

    If man's will is completely free then God's Will in a given situation can be thwarted and future history is unpredictable.

    Man then is in charge of his own destiny.
     
  2. npetreley

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    I'm not sure that's true. Perfect foreknowledge would correct open theology, but then that introduces the question of whether or not something perfectly forknown is by definition foreordained.
     
  3. William C

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    Just like some people believe that the only logical conclusion for Calvinism is double predestination, God as responsible for sin and damnation of non-elect, determinism, fatalism, human robotics, , etc etc.

    Isn't that called "ad hominem" reasoning to carry out ones beliefs to their logical conclusions. Any of our beliefs can be taken to seed and carried to "logical" extremes that can't be supported in scripture, so I don't think Calvinist's want to introduce this line of reasoning.

    Isn't possible for a omnipotent God to create a plan in which he can maintain his sovereignty while still allowing his creation to have control over some aspects? Yes, and that is exactly what He has done.
     
  4. Hardsheller

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    Brother Bill,

    Yes or No Question.

    Can God's Will be Thwarted?
     
  5. William C

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    Yes and No:

    His Permissive desires? Yes

    His Sovereign Will? No
     
  6. npetreley

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    I know you weren't asking me, but praise God, no, it cannot. IMO, it can appear to be thwarted from our perspective. But our perspective is severely limited.
     
  7. romanbear

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    Hi Hardsheller;
    It's my contention that Calvinism isn't from God but man. If there is no love in it then God isn't in it. Calvinism shows there is no love in it, even Calvin didn't address love as any thing important. In fact this is the main reason I oppose it because there is no love in it.
    Romanbear
     
  8. russell55

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    I actually agree with Bill here.

    Rid Arminianism of its paradoxes and you have Open Theology; rid Calvinism of its paradoxes and you have Hypercalvinism. Anyone who is determined to rid their system of paradox quickly moves beyond the pale of orthodoxy.

    Let's allow them their paradoxes, as we allow ourselves our own paradoxes.
     
  9. William C

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    Actually Romanbear I hate to contradict you on a board so full of other greater contradictions; however, to be fair to Calvin, much of his writtings on God's love is quite good.

    Though I do beleive his system to be flawed it still promotes the love of God for His creation, it just promotes it a light that is not favorable to the mass of humanity.
     
  10. William C

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    Thank you, thank you, thank you, God Bless, I would kiss your feet if this was a live coversion (we can both be grateful its not [​IMG] )

    An objective Calvinist!!! Finally! My respect for you just went up about 10 notches! I can honestly discuss issues with someone like you Russell! (after this I would have definiately know you were a woman, men are much too arrogant to be this objective in a competetive debate forum)

    Disagreement with me is fine, but I really, really appreciate honesty and objectiveness in those disagreements. It goes sooo much farther.

    Again thank you and God bless!!! [​IMG]
     
  11. William C

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    I know I'm supposed to be ignoring you but sometimes I can't resist. [​IMG]

    God desires for Nicholas Petreley to be Christlike in his behavior to other believers but you twart that desire.

    Oh, wait that must be God permissive desires, not His sovereign will.

    He desires that his children obey his commandments, sometimes we don't. Is that twarting the Will of God? Only if you see God's Sovereign will and his permissive desires as one and the same. I don't, do you?
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    I'm assuming you are using the term "Open Theology" to mean "Open Theism"...

    Your definition of Open Theism as stated above is a caricature of a real Open Theism position.

    As far as your primary assertion goes, I'd say that a person who rejects Calvinism as unbiblical may well find themselves embracing a view compatible with Open Theism. It is not a certainty by any means, but it is certainly possible.

    Of course I think Calvinism is unbiblical and I reject classic Arminianism as well. :D

    The biblical views known as Open Theism are very attractive to me because apparently I’ve been something of an Open Theist for years – long before the term was coined.
     
  13. npetreley

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    I know I'm supposed to be ignoring you but sometimes I can't resist. [​IMG]

    God desires for Nicholas Petreley to be Christlike in his behavior to other believers but you twart that desire.

    Oh, wait that must be God permissive desires, not His sovereign will.

    He desires that his children obey his commandments, sometimes we don't. Is that twarting the Will of God? Only if you see God's Sovereign will and his permissive desires as one and the same. I don't, do you?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God has a permissive will. The difference of opinion we have is not how it comes to pass, but that I see all things coming to pass of necessity, even by God's permissive will.

    In other words, if God foreknows and permits something, it is by definition foreordained and therefore occurs according to His will. That doesn't eliminate personal responsibility, but it does eliminate the possibility that God's will is thwarted, because God could just as easily have determined that such things never happened. The fact that He foreknow and deliberately allowed these things means it happened according to His will.

    Finally, there are many facets of what it means to be Christlike in one's behavior. If I say "woe to you, Mr. Bill, because you distort the truth for the sake of your humanistic doctrine" I am being quite Christlike in at least one respect. No doubt I fall incredibly short in all respects of being Christlike. Fortunately, thanks to the immutable will of God, I can count on His promise to finish His work in me.
     
  14. William C

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    Nick,

    God's foreknowledge and permission for allowing something to take place is his "permissive will," but it doesn't necessiate control over or responsiblity for such events.

    If I went to a fortune teller (as if they were real) a year ago and she told me that a guy named Nick would be a thorn in my side; does that mean she caused you to say the things you choose to say on this board? No, she just knew they would exist.

    Calvinist stray away from God causing man to make sinful choices but they use a logic that is contradictory to insist that God must cause man to make the choice to follow Christ because it was foreordained.

    Was not our sinful choices foreordain by the same foreknowledge and permissive will that our good choices are made.

    In other words, God no more foreordains our sin than he foreordains our faith. Both are within man's capasity from birth and man is responsible for exercising both. That is consistant with the whole of divine revelation and does not afford the extreme paradoxes of the Calvinistic system.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Hardsheller,

    Your view in your opening remarks is merely the machination of your own human mind. But we gracefully accept the use of your free will in deciding what you have penned.

    Arminians accept only the Five Points of Arminianism as defined in classic theology. Please, don't put additional words in our mouths. Open theology goes well beyond what we believe the Bible states. We know that God knows all of His sovereign history and all the major events of the rapture, the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming and the judgment of sinners will all take place as planned by His will.

    Thanks but no thanks to Open Theology!
     
  16. npetreley

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    If you don't see the difference between a fortune teller and God, who created all things and has ultimate authority of all things, then you're even more hopeless than I thought, and I didn't think there was anything below that point.
     
  17. William C

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    Oh, brother.

    Nick, this is exactly why it's impossible to have a reasonable debate with you. You take reasonable arguments and draw extreme conclusions thus dismissing the real point of the discussion. If you don't know how to answer my argument just say so, don't apply ridiclous conclusions to my human analogies. What if we did that to Christ's analogies in scritpure.

    Nick's response to Christ's parables:

    "If you can't tell the difference between a shepherd and the Messiah then you're more hopeless than I thought."

    "If you can't tell the difference between the kingdom of God and a mustard seed then you're more hopeless than I thought."

    "If you can't tell the difference between God and the typical earthly father then you're more hopeless than I thought."

    "If you can't tell the difference between God and a farmer then you're more hopeless than I thought."

    "If you can't tell the difference between weeds and lost people then you're more hopeless than I thought."

    "If you can't tell the difference between a bride and the church then you're more hopeless than I thought."

    Shall I go on?

    Christ uses simple analogies to explain difficult truths to simple minds, I was doing to same but obviously your mind is so simple you missed the point. ;)
    [​IMG]
     
  18. npetreley

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    No, this is why arguing with you is a pointless exercise. You conjure up a completely bogus analogy and pretend it is reasonable. IMO, I'm guessing God does not live in linear time frames, but in order to make this understandable, I will express it that way: If God has perfect foreknowledge, He knows the consequences of every decision before He makes it. Therefore, He knew that Adam would sin, He knew that I would stub my toe when I was 5 years old, etc. By creating everything with this foreknowledge, He foreordained it to be true of necessity, since he could just as easily have chosen NOT to create everything, or to create things differently so as to spawn a whole different set of events.

    Why does God permit the things He foreknows? Because he works ALL things -- not just directed but permitted things -- together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. That right there should tell you that these things are foreordained.

    It goes without saying that the fortune teller has no power over the future he/she foreknows, therefore your analogy is almost as ridiculous as your theology.
     
  19. Frogman

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    Brother Bill,

    Here is the secret and the revealed will of God we spoke of the other day.

    As in the example of Pharoah. The revealed will of God was for Pharoah to let Israel go, the secret will was such that He knew Pharoah would not, though God did not cause Pharoah to disobey His will, this came from the depraved will of man. Yet it was the purpose of God to show His glory in Egypt and His ability to separate His people from Egypt.

    I do not believe God's will can be thwarted, but this does not follow that God ordains for man to sin. This is all worked by the depravity of man. You fail to see that because you don't believe man is depraved, at least in the degree that he is.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. Hardsheller

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    I'm assuming you are using the term "Open Theology" to mean "Open Theism"...

    Your definition of Open Theism as stated above is a caricature of a real Open Theism position.

    As far as your primary assertion goes, I'd say that a person who rejects Calvinism as unbiblical may well find themselves embracing a view compatible with Open Theism. It is not a certainty by any means, but it is certainly possible.

    Of course I think Calvinism is unbiblical and I reject classic Arminianism as well. :D

    The biblical views known as Open Theism are very attractive to me because apparently I’ve been something of an Open Theist for years – long before the term was coined.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Baptist Believer,

    You prove my point. :D
     

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