Arminians and OSAS - a show of hands

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 7, 2007.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Group 1 -If you are Arminian and you also hold to OSAS - would you be willing to explain how you hold to both free will AND OSAS?

    Group 2 - IF you are Calvinist - do you find an Arminian+OSAS theology to be a complimentary combination or a contradictory combination?

    Group 3 - If you believe in Free Will but do not consider yourself to be Arminian - then again "do you also hold to OSAS"?? And what about the Free Will position of Arminians leads you to still not call yourself Arminian?

    Just curious about the mix that we have here.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2007
  2. AAA

    AAA
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    It is hard to read what a person has written, until you truely understand what they are trying to say to you in the context that they are trying to convey...

    :godisgood:

    Highlight the text and you shall see...

    God is the ONE who grants sight to see the spirital truths in HIS word for all HIS elect to see............And all others will be forever blinded....
     
    #2 AAA, May 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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  4. AAA

    AAA
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  5. Amy.G

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    I didn't get it at first, but after I highlighted it, that was pretty cool. Good illustration. :)
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Sorry, Arminians do not hold to a free will:tonofbricks:Sorry BR, I could not resist.:)
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: May I suggest that it is OSAS that you honestly hold to not simply security of the believer? I would go further and add that your free will is no free will at all. You cannot have just ‘some’ free will. Either the will is free or is it not. Either one can do something other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances, or the will cannot be said to be free. It is an ‘either/or’ proposition.

    I hold to the security of the ‘believer.’ As long as one is believing as evidenced by a holy walk, i.e., walking as a believer walks, one is indeed secure. What you are suggesting is far from security of the believer, but rather you seem to be suggesting that it does not matter what you do as long as you are one of the elect. If man does not have anything to do with their salvation at all, all is determined by God regardless of what man does. If it is as you say, that you ‘cannot’ change, nothing can change regardless of what man does or does not do. You are telling us that you are a pure antinomian from what I read.
     
  8. AAA

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    What is a pure antinomian ?

    I will try to address this issue later, because I can not type right now...............

    See you then...
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP Being 'pure antinimian' means to me, one who simply believes that 'under the gospel,' the law is of no practical use for the believer, and that the believer is under no real meaningful obligation to it. It would be one that maintains that obedience to the law, or disobedience to it, does not affect ones salvation in any way.

     
  10. BobRyan

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    I believe DHK is one on this board that would not call himself Calvinist - but holds to OSAS.

    I think there are quite a few others in that group - I just don't know how many.

    Also I am not seeing the Calvinists posting here - responding to the question put to them in the OP.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    Okay, I'll bite.

    I'm in Group 2. And I find that OSAS-Armininian theology is a contradictory combination.

    Most of my fellow Baptists would fit in Group 3, but would reject the idea that they are Arminian. The majority of Baptists are a strange hybrid, which Calvinist Baptists find contradictory. They hold to free will and OSAS.
     
  12. JDale

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    I don't know where I'd fit in your categories...

    I'm Reformed Arminian. I believe one is "once Saved," but may forfeit salvation and reject the faith they once truly held. In other words, I affirm the possibility of apostasy.

    Most SB's and IB's are really "modified Arminians" -- they hold to 2 points of Calvinism (the first adn the last -- Total Depravity and Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints). but the rest they hold are Arminian principles. And yes, that seems inconsistent to me.

    JDale
     
  13. convicted1

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    Arminian-OSAS

    I have a question....What exactly is Arminism(sp?) I know it has to do with the doctrine of an individual, but what do they really believe? I know what a "calvinist" is. But shouldn't we ALL be a Jesussites? I could care less about the C/A argument, because in the end, a bunch of toes get stepped on, and feelings get hurt. I do believe in the OSAS theology. The same God that saves an individual, can keep him, too. Now, I don't believe the believer will do just anything and everything and still go to heaven, but with the new mind, heart, soul, etc., the believer will never stray very far from the Shepherd. They have a new desire to please the Shepherd. But can someone tell me the doctrines of Armininism? Thanks!!
     
  14. Dustin

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    I found this nifty Article on the Remonstrants that lays out the Reformed Arminian doctrines.

    The Five Articles of the Remonstrants, 1610

    Article 1.

    [Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]

    That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
    Article 2.

    [Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]

    That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
    Article 3.

    [Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]

    That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
    Article 4.

    [Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, IrresistibleGrace]

    That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
    Article 5.

    [Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]

    That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.


    www.cresourcei.org/creedremonstrants.html



    Hope this helps.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
    #14 Dustin, May 11, 2007
    Last edited: May 11, 2007
  15. BobRyan

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    Part A seems to allow for free will that is the basic distinctive in the Arminian position.





    Part B begins to question that free will - but leaves it up to further Bible study.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    I too believe that one can lost salvation "Fall from Grace" as the Bible says in Gal 5 for those who "were running well".

    however that is not rejecting "perseverance" as taught in the Bible for the bible WARNS us against the REAL DANGER of failing to persevere.

    Think about it - only by rejecting the error of OSAS can there even BE such a REAL thing as "failure to persevere" and then a warning against it.

    It is precisely BECAUSE you and I reject OSAS that we DO hold to the WARNINGS about failure to persevere.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    And I find that odd - being Arminian I would I have agree with your assessment. It is one of the clear cases where Calvinists (at least those like you) and Arminians (at least the ones like me) can agree.

    It is INconsistent to hold that "you can not fail to persevere" and ALSO hold to free will. If you have free will then at the very least "it is POSSIBLE to fail to persevere".

    The Bible WARNS against that failure - and in the Arminian "free will" context it can only be because such failure is REAL
     
    #17 BobRyan, May 11, 2007
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  18. Dustin

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    Right, they basically said "we can't say for sure."



    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Either a flat out rejection of OSAS because it conflicts with the teaching of "Whosoever will" OR at the very most "a question mark asking that more Bible study be had on the subject" - would be consistent for the Arminian POV.

    I would not complain about either position in terms of "consistency".

    But that is as far as you can take it and still be Arminian.

    IMHO

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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