Arminians and Prophecy

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    There is a fundamental contradiction in your doctrine if you are anti-Calvinist and accept prophecy as true. On the one hand- you claim that man is able to make the final decision in any given matter because he has the will to do so. Yet on the other, you are accepting hundreds of prophetic statements chiseled in stone and more certain to occur than that which has already occurred. If man's will is the final deciding factor in who get's written in the Lamb's book of life, man is also the final deciding factor in whether prophecy is true. After all, Judas was preordained to betray Christ, the Jews were preordained to kill him, and Joseph (a rich man) was preordained to bury him. How glad we are they didn't use their wills to frustrate the plan of God! Just imagine if they had decided not to do these things! Whew! :rolleyes:
     
  2. Mercury

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    Isn't this more an argument against open theism (the idea that people's future choices are unknowable even to God) than Arminianism?
     
  3. ascund

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    Hey Mercury

    Yes indeed! God is able to bring about His prophecies in two ways:

    1) He knows everything beforehand
    2) He is so wise and powerful that puny human free will decisions cannot thwart His plans.

    Lloyd
     
  4. johnp.

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    He knows the future because He will cause His plans to come to pass Lloyd. Everything that comes to pass is due soley to the will of God.

    john.
     
  5. ascund

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    Hey Johnp

    Your latest post has nothing that contradicts what I posted. I am hard put to know how to respond to something that agrees with what I posted.

    Perhaps you would help me out here.
    Lloyd
     
  6. johnp.

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    Your number two did not express it in the same way. #2 looks as if the Lord would have to force it through against human will but in reality He uses man's will to acheive His ends. He uses man's will by willing in it to accomplish His plan.

    That's all. :cool: How are you? We haven't crossed swords for ages.

    john.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    This would be true on your part if you understood what Anti-Calvinist believe. Obviously you don't understand.
    Not so but he does have the ability to make a decision for Christ. For instance prophecy doesn't include who will be saved and who won't.
    You may believe in the election before the foundation of the world. How ever you err about who that election is for. You did not exist before the foundation of the world, so that you could be chosen.
    Let's just say they will occur. The problem you would have is that you will fail to show where it is chiseled that you would be saved personally.
    Not so. Man only decides to believe. Prophecy is seldom about individuals but about events. Christ and John the Baptist were two who were prophesized about, But both brought major events about.
    Not so and not scriptural. No one is ever preordained to sin.
    That's hyper Calvinism.
    No one has ever claimed to, have you?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  8. ascund

    ascund
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    Hey Johnp

    Good response. True indeed. I don't think we are able to distinguish between the two as to the mechanics that God actually uses to fulfill His prophetic statements. If I tie this back into the kernel of the post, prophecy is a non-discriminator for the Calvinist/Free grace/Arminian discussion (Please note that FG is the truth surrounded by the other two well-known errors).


    Thanks for asking! I just recently finished my oral defense of my dissertation at Trinity College and Seminary (Newburg IN). Hopefully, I can make the several dozens of changes (mostly minor grammatical stuff) this week!

    I view as I do Coleman W. Barnwell. CWB is a close friend who is a rabid Calvinist. When we go out together we each endure each other's well intentioned "barbs."

    "Crossing swords" with those who pursue Christ's righteousness is a pleasure.

    Lloyd
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Ascund,

    It think it is you who are going over your dissertion for your degree.

    Fine tuning your own work is a real job. The grammatical and spelling checks drive you crazy.

    My dissertation was on "Quasi-Augustinian Theology." Hours and hours of work. After the Th.D. was granted I thanked the Lord for giving me the opportunity to study for His glory and praise.

    Ray
     
  10. whetstone

    whetstone
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    So do i understand you correctly...that God can only choose people once they are born? Does that mean He is limited to time? If scripture says men and women were chosen from the foundation of the world, why do we strain at taking God at His word?

    My name was chiseled into the palms of Christ's hands before the foundation of the world. What better prophecy can there be than that?

    Not so. Man only decides to believe. Prophecy is seldom about individuals but about events. Christ and John the Baptist were two who were prophesized about, But both brought major events about.</font>[/QUOTE]Apparently you haven't read many the prophecies Christ made about people regarding salvation. Passages that talk about many saying to him "Lord Lord" etc. If you read Revelation you will read about a man on a white horse who is prophecied to do abominable things. If you think prophecy is ONLY what God says He will do, you may want to reread the entire NT.

    Not so and not scriptural. No one is ever preordained to sin.
    That's hyper Calvinism. </font>[/QUOTE]It's baffling you've said this. Allow me to share some verses with you.

    Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

    Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    No one has ever claimed to, have you?</font>[/QUOTE]If Christ dies for men and they stubbornly die and go to hell anyways- they have frustrated Christ's plan. If Christ has died for certain men and woman and effectively saves them- his will has not been frustrated in the least! Regards,

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    Daniel,

    With all due respect you might want to study your Bible and let it speak to you rather than having Calvin and Spurgeon talking to you about Scripture.

    Under both covenants sinners rejected the Lord. Read Isaiah 65:2-3 & Acts 7:51. Also, in Leviticus 26:18 people remain rebellious against the Lord unto their own judgment by God. Check out Isaiah 63:10. Sinners can resist the ministry the working of the Holy Spirit.

    If you ever become a pastor you will see it before your very eyes.

    When Judas appears before the Great White Throne Judgment he will not be able to say, "Lord, you made me into a thief." Because of his rebellious and sinful life he remained a thief among the Apostolic band.

    Our Lord of love and justice does not pre-program some to become saved and the rest to remain in their sinful lives.

    You, me and all other human beings are responsible for our own spiritual life.

    Do not do as some others do in making the Lord a co-Conspirator with Satan in sending men and women to Hell. When you FULLY understand this idea you will gladly turn from your error of Calvinism.

    The Lord of glory does not plott people damnation.
     
  12. HanSola2000

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    John said:

    Everything that comes to pass is due soley to the will of God.


    No it isn't. Most of what comesto pass is not the will of God. It is the will of Satan. God is only responsible for the good in this world, man andx the devil, for all the evil, pain and suffering.
     
  13. johnp.

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    Hello HanS

    JOB 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said. :cool:

    As for responsible, sinners are held responsible.

    ..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:21.

    john.
     
  14. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Now I'm gonna hold you to this and I want you to produce: Please quote me from this thread where I even quoted Calvin or Spurgeon. Get back to me when you find it.

    No disagreement there. Man is totally depraved- does not seek God, wants nothing to do with him. What you mistakenly do, however, is equal God's effectual call unto salvation with God's general conviction for sin in conscience and the law written into their hearts. Calvinists do not say a non-elect man cannot be convicted of his sin. He may fall to the ground weeping- but he does not seek repentance from it. He loves his sin more than anything else. He is weeping because of the consequences and the gnawing of his conscience. Christ has come to seek and to save that which is lost. He will not fail.

    I never said Judas was a robot- but that his role was predetermined. Was Jesus a robot? No? Was his role predetermined? You cannot comprehend election and reject it on that ground. I cannot comprehend it either- but scripture teaches it and I accept it by faith. Where is your faith?

    Chapter and verse please?

    No, we are all responsible for our damnation. It is Christ who is responsible for our spiritual life.

    I'm sorry you feel that I am in error- but I shall never cease from these old doctrines unless the very words of scripture change.

    Did God know Judas was to die unsaved? Did God create Judas anyways? Please tell me what happened here.

    Regards,

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  15. ascund

    ascund
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    Greetings Daniel


    This is a typical Calvinistic superiority response. The Bible clearly shows a universal payment for sins (past/present/future). Check out Matt 26:28; Rom 5:6-8, II Cor 5:19; I Tim 1:15, 2:1-6; and I John 2:2.

    This free offer of pardon is universally extended to the whole world. God is not willing that any should perish (II Pet 3:9). The Bible is full of universal atonement passages.

    It seems to me that the burden of proof is upon you to show how one or two verses can countermand the clear teaching of God's Word wrt universal atonement and offer of pardon to whosoever would believe (John 3:16).

    Lloyd
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Daniel Allen,

    Now I'm gonna hold you to this and I want you to produce: Please quote me from this thread where I even quoted Calvin or Spurgeon. Get back to me when you find it.

     
  17. Johnv

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    I think so. Besides, no one is purely Calvinist, or purely Arminian. In fact, I work with a woman who immigrated from Arminia, and she's a Calvinist. :eek:
     
  18. Johnv

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    "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose." - Romans 8:28

    Now that doesn't mean that all things happen because God willed it (God does not desire that any should perish, but many do). But it does mean that all things are premitted by God, and God's will is ultimately going to be accomplished regardless of whether any particular thing came from the will of God or not.
     
  19. whetstone

    whetstone
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    This is a typical Calvinistic superiority response. The Bible clearly shows a universal payment for sins (past/present/future). Check out Matt 26:28; Rom 5:6-8, II Cor 5:19; I Tim 1:15, 2:1-6; and I John 2:2.

    This free offer of pardon is universally extended to the whole world. God is not willing that any should perish (II Pet 3:9). The Bible is full of universal atonement passages.

    It seems to me that the burden of proof is upon you to show how one or two verses can countermand the clear teaching of God's Word wrt universal atonement and offer of pardon to whosoever would believe (John 3:16).

    Lloyd
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your reply Lloyd. I agree- the burden of proof IS on me to show verses that prove Limited Atonement is Biblical. And I'll do Just that. Here is my proof.

    You are giving me the same old verses arminians like to use to 'prove' their doctrine. it's about 10 verses and it is overwhelmed by the body of scripture. Why not read the entire New Testament through with the doctrines of grace in mind and see how often they are spoken of. Regards,

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us

    PS- it wasn't a superiority thing to ask for chapter and verse. I am ready always to give an answer to every man of the hope that lies within me. I have scores of chapters and verses for EVERY doctrine I believe. How about you?
     
  20. ascund

    ascund
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    Hey David

    I looked at your [long] list.

    I’m only taking the first five. The errors you make in these are likely to be repeated ad nauseum in the rest of the list.

    Matt 13:11 is yanked out of context. Jesus was speaking to His disciples with whom He gave special knowledge. This has nothing to do with personal election or free will.

    Matt 20:16 is the parable of the landowner. The whole parable is not about personal salvation but that all disciples are equal in God’s eyes. The chosen ones are true believers who accepted the call of God and demonstrated their faith.

    Matt 20:28 shows the Hebrew mind that puts word in parallel to provide a rhyme in idea. “Many” is used in the inclusive sense of “all” (cf. 1:32-34; Isa. 53:10-12). It emphasizes how a large number derive redemptive benefit from the single sacrifice of the One Redeemer. To verify this further, compare Rom. 5:15 with 18-19. (Bible Knowledge commentary)

    Matt 22:14 is a clear illustration of celebration in Jesus’ kingdom. The many who are called are those who have believed in Jesus. The few chosen are the rewarded believers. When one cannot comprehend dispensations, then one falls for error.

    Matt 26:28 Again, the word many is to be compared to the passages that show forgiveness by Jesus’ blood is available to the whole world (I John 2:2). You restrict the word by your presuppositions.

    You have used five unclear verses where theology yanks them from context and redefines them according to your denominational presuppositions. Anyone can build a list of 600 verses proving anything using this method.

    I thought this was to be a scholarly forum.
    Lloyd
     

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