Arminians and Sovereignty

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Sep 29, 2010.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    This is for Free Will and General Baptists and Southern, Missionary and Independent Baptist four pointers (four point arminian- one point Calvinist).

    Do you believe in "exhaustive sovereignty"? Do you believe that God controls all things great and small; from the appointment of kings to the shifting of a single grain of sand on the sea shore?

    I do not think you can be less than a Calvinist and really believe that God is in complete control of all things. I do not believe you could really, logically believe that "of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS". As an Arminian you may claim you believe God has overarching control and that he works things out for good that were out of his control- but you have to believe that many things occur outside the control of God. Thus you believe that he is not TRULY sovereign.

    Any takers?
     
    #1 Luke2427, Sep 29, 2010
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  2. Paul3144

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    God is in complete control of all things. Just because He chose to elect people to salvation based on foreseen faith in no way negates His sovereignty.
     
  3. Luke2427

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    "God is in complete control of all things," you said.

    This means he is in control of faith. He controls who gets it, who doesn't.

    He is in control of whether the hearer receives faith by the word or whether the hearer does not receive faith by the word.

    If he is not in control of that, then he is not in control of all things as you say he is.

    Your position is inconsistent. God is either in control of all things, including who believes and who doesn't or man is in control of that and God is not completely Sovereign.

    Which is it?

    Consider omnipotence. This attribute means that all power is God's. If he has all power then there is no power that is not his. The power to believe is His power. If God is in control of all of his power then it is God who gives men the power to believe. Otherwise, men are in control of some of God's power and God is not Sovereign over all of his power, OR he is not all powerful, not omnipotent, and man has some power that belongs to him apart from God's power.

    Which is it?
     
    #3 Luke2427, Sep 30, 2010
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  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Faith

    If a man just stopped eating and died was it God who stopped him from eating?

    It isn't man choice that we need food, but God. Even though the man stopped eating God is still in control, because the rule we die from starvation isn't man's, but God. It isn't God who made him stop eating, but God is still in control.

    It is God who said we must believe(trust) in His Son to be saved not man. So it is God who made the choice to save them, His rule not man's. So no matter what men try to do , or even deny this truth they can't change it; Just like they can't change the rule of dying without substance. God is in control, not me , you, or anyone.
     
  5. Luke2427

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    If you are interested in debate, which I would think you would be since this is a debate site, then answer arguments put to you and THEN post your own arguments or questions.

    Answer the two "which is it" questions in my post and I willl be glad to answer any questions you then put to me.
     
  6. convicted1

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    Dear Bro. Luke,

    This is a loaded question, if there was ever one. If anyone replies with anything other than what you believe, then shame on them. However, with saying that, I will try to give you biblical responses. If God is control of everythin, then we are his own puppets and/or robots. God has given man freewill(oh, I know you hate that word), and with that freewill, comes mans responsibility.

    Here is what happens when you walk in His will:
    Lev. 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

    4Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

    5And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

    6And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

    7And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.

    8And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

    9For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

    10And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.

    11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

    12And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

    And if you don't walk in His will:
    Lev. 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;

    15And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

    16I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

    17And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

    18And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

    19And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

    20And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.

    21And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

    22I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

    23And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;

    24Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

    25And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

    26And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.

    27And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;

    28Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

    29And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

    30And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

    31And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.

    32And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.

    33And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

    34Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

    35As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

    36And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

    37And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.

    38And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

    39And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

    40If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

    41And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

    42Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

    43The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

    44And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

    45But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

    46These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

    Deut. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Joshua 24:15
    And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD


    Luke 10:42
    But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

    So you see, through our freewill, we have a choice to make, whether to hear or forbear. With this responsibilty, comes consequences, and if we choose not to listen to Him, they shall die in their sins, and where He is, they can not come. I pray that this helps! With love!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  7. Luke2427

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    where do those verses say you have free will?

    You think they imply free will but they do not. The law exists to prove we are unrighteous before God. God told us to do hundreds of things we cannot do to prove that we are wicked to the core. There is none that doeth good.

    You, without Christ, cannot do the will of God, period. Your will is completely bent to evil. You can no more do right than a leopard can change his spots or an ethiopian his skin.

    Answer the questions of the original post. They are fair and valid.
     
  8. psalms109:31

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    Sovreignty

    Luke,
    I do not see God sovereignty the way you do. I see that God lays rules like rules of nature.

    If what God say's does not happen then He is not sovereign and He isn't in control. No way with me having choices takes away from His sovereignty, especially when it was He who placed them before me. I am not saved because of my choice, but because of His choice to save believers.

    If those who believe are not saved and the one's who do not are not condemned then God isn't sovereign

    A sovereign king is still sovereign if one goes against his rules, but he isn't if one goes against his rules doesn't pay the consequences for breaking them.

    Like those who believe in His Son will be saved and those who do not will be condemned
     
  9. Luke2427

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    Then you do not believe that God is Sovereign over ALL. You do not believe that God is in control of all things.

    This is the Arminian position.

    A human king is not Sovereign over all. He is not able to rule over everything in his kingdom. He is not omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. etc... When you use a human king to illustrate the idea of Sovereignty then you fail to align your thinking with the implications of DIVINE sovereignty.

    The two are CERTAINLY not the same, nor can they be compared; nor can one be a meaningful anecdote for the other.
     
    #9 Luke2427, Sep 30, 2010
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  10. dwmoeller1

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    Someone needs to define what free will is and is not, otherwise this thread is going nowhere (ok, more nowhere than would normally be expected).
     
  11. psalms109:31

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    This is one of the biggest problems man's misunderstanding of sovereignty of God.
    God bless!!!
     
  12. Luke2427

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    I'll define it- it is a misnomer.

    The only time you find it mentioned in the Bible is concerning "free will" offerings which simply mean that you can make offerings to God which are in addition to the specified and expected offerings. This does not imply that man's will is literally "free" to do good or evil.

    Man's will is not free in the sense that man comes to a fork on the road- righteousness on the left and unrighteousness on the right and he is perfectly able to choose the one or the other. Man can only choose evil. His will is bound by his nature.

    The truth of the matter is that no will is really free. God cannot do evil.
    Sinful man is no more able to do right than God is able to do wrong.

    To choose to honor and obey Christ is righteousness. But there is none that doeth righteousness, no not one.
     
  13. Winman

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    If God controls every event and causes it to happen, then God is the author of evil. When a pervert molests a child, God determined that would happen by your reasoning.

    God is in control, but he allows men free choice. The scriptures show this.

    Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart.

    Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire [for] burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake [it], neither came [it] into my mind:

    In both these verses God says the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal, burning them in fire. In both verses he says he never commanded it. He says he never spake it in Jer 19:5. He says this act did not come into his heart or mind.

    So, there you have it, men are allowed to act freely. Does God know what men are doing? Yes. Could God stop it? Yes. But it is clear God allows men to act independently. God is still in complete control, he will judge all of us for whether we have done good or evil.

    Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    God provides the means of faith, his word. But whether men choose to believe his word or reject it is solely up to them. But God is still in control and every one of us will have to account before him.
     
    #13 Winman, Sep 30, 2010
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  14. Paul3144

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    Luke, you're misrepresenting Arminianism. We don't believe that man has free will in salvation or the ability to do good apart from the grace of God. It is God's sovereign choice to do things the way He does. I've posted this before, and I'll post it again- The Five Articles of Remonstrance so you can know what Arminians really believe instead of the Calvinist strawmen you're throwing out.

     
  15. dwmoeller1

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    To be more precise Paul, you are arguing for what should be called Historical Arminianism. Those who claim the label of Arminian nowadays have generally moved away from the Articles of Remonstrance on several key points. But, as you point out, Historical Armins don't deny God's sovereignty in salvation.

    However, there are some problems that arise for the Armin when their position is looked at more closely.
     
    #15 dwmoeller1, Sep 30, 2010
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  16. dwmoeller1

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    double post
     
    #16 dwmoeller1, Sep 30, 2010
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  17. dwmoeller1

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    FWIW, the historical Arminian position would agree with this. Notice in particular Article III and IV of the Remonstrance.

    And also, FWIW, your definition would deny God free will.

    Not that your definition isn't accepted, I merely point out the two main consequences of your definition.
     
    #17 dwmoeller1, Sep 30, 2010
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  18. webdog

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    Define "complete control of all things". If you mean nothing happens apart from God's decreed, declarative or permissive will...the answer is yes. If you mean He directs everything (including sin), it's obviously no.
     
  19. Paul3144

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    The issue is that a lot of evangelicals are actual semi-Pelagians, which is a term Calvinists like to throw at Arminians as a cuss word.
     
  20. dwmoeller1

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    I agree on both points. However, it isn't helped by the fact that most who claim the label of Arminian nowadays are those same evangelicals who are semi-Pelagian. Which is why the distinction between historic and modern Armins is necessary. Its too often claimed for any who see themselves and orthodox anti-Calvinists, but who are actually some branch of Finneyintes.
     
    #20 dwmoeller1, Sep 30, 2010
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