arminians are they saved?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by massdak, Nov 9, 2002.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    here is a link to an interesting article>>http://www.prca.org/current/Doctrine/NEWS-E17.htm

    this could be a good warning for those soley thinking they are the one doing the choosing. agree?
    i believe God chose us first, and then enables us to love Him as we are born again.

    [ November 09, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: massdak ]
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    We know we have passed from death unto life in that we love the brethren... Does not an arminian brother love the Lord?... I've heard from many of them and are sure by there posts that they do!

    I myself am of the Primitive Baptist brethren and whether Arminian or Calvanist... The Salvation is in neither of these viewpoints but in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No doctrinal point can give eternal salvation whether you believe it or not.

    John 5:[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. You can read and disect the scriptures from cover to cover... book by book... scripture to scripture and after that if you are not convinced that it is Jesus Christ only that saves eternally your labors are in vain.

    It is not the doctrine the written word gospel that saves eternally but the Living Word Of God... Jesus Christ that paid for your sins and mine and ALL his children on the cross of Calvary!... That's my belief what's yours?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  3. Yelsew

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    You left out the essential part, we must take action to allow Jesus to save us. Jesus illustrated what I am saying by saying, "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will open the door, I will come in and sup with him." We as individuals must take action to allow God to save us. If we do not allow it, God does not!

    How does one know that God is at the door if they refuse to accept the written Word of God? How does one know that we must submit to God's calling?
     
  4. Jim1999

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    Ultimately, Jesus is the Word!

    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Word) and you will be saved. On this one point all Christians come together. The rest is tinder and tinsel.

    Now I enjoy having dry substance to start a fire, and throughly enjoy decorations, but I would never part fellowship with another believer over such. He may have the match!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. KenH

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    Are you saying that God is dependent upon man in soteriology? Are you saying that God is at the mercy of man in soteriology?

    Could you clarify what you mean, please?

    Thanks.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite [​IMG]
     
  6. npetreley

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    You left out an "essential part" of your quote from Revelation.

    "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

    And where do we get ears to hear? Deuteronomy 29:4.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Thanks for letting us Arminian Christians slide in under the Gospel tent.

    Some of us might be teaching in Heaven remedial courses for saved Calvinists. My course will probably be "Unlimited Atonement 101." Some of you Calvinists better start 'cramming' right now.

    As the Dutch say in Pennsylvania, 'Chust kidding!'
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    All sinners have ears. The question is will they respond to the calling of the Spirit or will they turn further away from the Lord God. [John 5:40; Ezekiel 33:8]

    'Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and EARS; YE do always RESIST the Holy Ghost, as your fathers did, so do ye.' [Acts 7:51]
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Harald

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    The question as to whether one who is "Arminian" is saved or not is not as easy as it looks. First the term Arminian must be defined. Then "saved" must be defined. I will give my personal opinion. I would call such Arminian who denies total inability and depravity, who denies unconditional election in Christ by grace in eternity, who denies particular redemption, who denies irresistible grace in regeneration and conversion, and who denies the unconditional preservation of those saved by grace through Christ. This was to my knowledge the classical Arminian position. But I also class such Arminians who deny all 4 first points mentioned but believe "eternal security".

    If that is an Arminian then I would say that a person's persisting in that belief system is giving evidence that he/she is not converted as it is defined in 1Thess. 1:4-6, 9. John says in 2 John 9 that everyone transgressing (present active participle, referring to a state or ongoing action)and not abiding (present active participle) in the doctrine of the Christ does not have God. The fact that a person persisting in Arminianism gives clear evidence of being unconverted does not necessarily mean that one will remain in that state until death. If God had elected such an one in Christ His eternal Son in eternity past he/she will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit on the basis of Christ's finished work, and in due time brought to Gospel conversion in power and in Holy Spirit, with things attending. An arminian may be saved but yet unconverted, if "saved" refers to regenerated. I take it most discussers talk of "saved" here in the sense of being converted.

    But a sad thing which most professing Calvinists seem oblivious of is that the vast majority of "orthodox Calvinists" so called are unconverted. They are strangers to an experimental conversion experience which occurs in the power of the divine Spirit by the true and Biblical Gospel of free and sovereign grace. They often pride themselves in their (notional) Calvinism and bash down on arminians. But in their hearts they are just as arminian as the arminians they despise. They have never been personally effectually called out of the darkness of idolatry and enmity against the sovereign and holy Lord God into the marvellous light of Christ Jesus, but have only changed belief system by adopting the system called Calvinism. They may talk about irresistible grace but sadly they are such that have come to another Jesus on their own initiative, and not drawn by the Father of Christ. To most of these their Calvinism is their god and their righteousness, and they are in dead earnest about it. But they have never experimentally known and felt what it is to be a sinner lost and undone and unclean and impotent and vain. They know nothing of sensible sinnerhood as produced in the hearts of those regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. Notional Calvinism is just as much a house of sand as Arminianism, and its fall will be great in that day.

    Harald
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Bravo Herald - not only have you condemned all Arminians to hell, but also all Calvinists that are not 5-point calvinists. Do you really mean to do that - "Salvation by Calvinism" and all?

    Is there one "essential" doctrine of Calvinism that all Calvinists must accept to be "Saved" in your view? Or are you saying they are "all essential" since in your view "all of them are true" and to persist in denying their truth - is to persist in error as you see 2John 9 saying?

    On the other - hand IF you did "allow" Arminians into heaven - it seems like you have a big problem. And here is why

    If we do not have free will, if God does all the acting and His sovereign will alone is performed -for the saints - His Chosen - His elect -- then we did nothing to enter into salvation - AND we continue to do nothing - such that we can do nothing to leave salvation. ALL of our ministry/actions are under God's direction. God chooses the saved - and chooses to order their lives according to His will.

    IN that case - (if you allow Arminians into heaven) then God is ordaining that the Arminian Saint continually point out the doctrinal errors of Cavlinism!

    So, to be consistent - it might be best to keep them out of heaven - lest the consequences unravel the Full 5 point Calvinist model. Nice going.

    IN Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 09, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Herald,

    Am I ever glad to have met you on this board.

    So here is another scenario for you that is posted by this Arminian posting on this board. It incorporates the key essentials of Calvinism into Calvinisms innevitable conclusion, as the Arminians are allowed to see and consider it.

    Please point out the principles of Calvinism that you accept - as they are used in the scenario and add any corrections needed.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 09, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  12. KenH

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    Will someone fix that skipping vinyl record. This nonsensical situation you keep re-posting is ridiculous. :rolleyes: I wonder how many times the moderators will let you keep posting it.

    Your hypothetical situation is even more ridiculous since if your soteriological view was true, no one would be saved, as the Bible clearly teaches that no one can be saved through the will of man(John 1:13, Romans 9:16).

    In Christ,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite :cool:

    [ November 09, 2002, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  13. Yelsew

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    Ken Hamilton,
    No that is not what I am saying. I am saying that God gave us a free will whereby we have the ability and obligation to choose to return to obedience to God. Disobedience being the sin of Adam and Eve and hence all mankind.

    God is no respecter of man, man is nothing to God, he created man from the dust, and man has no power whatever over God. However as I understand God, he wants us to choose and will not force us into submission regarding our destiny. God made things as they are, it we who must choose to either obey God or condemn ourselves by rejecting him.

    We raise our children in the same manner. We do not force them to be part of the family but we do our level best to make an environment for our children that instills in them the desire to continue all their lives to be part of the family.

    We come from God, He breathed the breath of life (spirit) into us and He has created for us an environment that instills in us the desire to return to him, but he does not force us to do so. He stands at the door of our inner man and knocks, if any man will hear and open the door, he will come in and sup with us. How long does he wait for us? Until it is too late for us to respond, when we take our last breath. As long as there is breath there is hope.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Harald,
    Jesus is not so particular as you! He said "whosoever believeth on him, even on his name" is saved. What you have posted makes Jesus a liar!
     
  15. Yelsew

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    What makes you think that in heaven things will be different for man than it is on earth? Jesus taught us to pray saying,
    God's will for us on earth is the same as it is for us in heaven, Jesus said so! The Holy Spirit empowers us, therefore the things you say are "impossible" here, are those things that you need to work on. We will not have any more perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others in heaven than we have here. We the created beings are every one of us equal in the eye of God, and He is the one who expresses perfect love, unity and selfless concern for each and every one of us. We are guilty for not doing the same here with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit!
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Actually, what was posted by Harald is not in contradiction to what Jesus said in anyway. As we constantly say (and some seem to miss), whosoever will may come. You want to emphasize the whosever, but whosoever is modified by "will." Whosoever won't can't come. So what Harald said (whether you agree or not) is not in anyway incompatible with what Christ said.
     
  17. Harald

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    A key here is how one defines the word "believeth". All religionists talk boastfully & piously of "believeth" but never do they define what this "believeth" consist of. The believeth in John 3:16 is in the original pisteuĂ´n, present active participle, which speaks of a state, not a once and for all "decision" or "trust Christ as personal Saviour", also a favourite cliche of freewillers and others alike. And the "believing" in John 3:16 that Christ speaks of is everything the NT says it is, nothing less and nothing more. It is no such thing as "simple, childlike faith". It is a Holy Spirit empowered believing, which demands the same energy which raised the Lord Jesus from among dead ones. It is a "believeth" out of reach from any and all who have not been quickened by the voice of the Son of God. First God quickens His redeemed elect, then at His own time He draws those same people to His beloved Son Jesus Christ with an irrisistible drawing power in the Holy Ghost. This drawing consists in experimentally teaching them, and this teaching, for it to be effectual, requires Holy Spirit illumination. So "believeth" in the Bible is shown to be wholly out of man's reach, and a grace-gift and fruit of the Spirit. The result of a God-wrought "believeth in Him" is the shutting out of all boasting in human ability and sufficiency etc. Romans 3:27. Such who profess Christ for their Saviour but yet boast in themselves or anything pertaining to their own persons in regard to salvation from sin and its power and consequences show that they are as unconverted as devils.

    Harald

    [ November 10, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Harald ]
     
  18. Yelsew

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    It seems you are accusing the "freewillers" of accepting the position that at the point of persuasion, first belief, one is saved for all eternity. Well in a way that is true because without that first belief, there can be no trust and there can be no continuation of belief.

    I do not define belief in that manner, but rather as first belief sustained for a life time. In other words Faith and Trust. Faith being, sustained belief; Trust being, acting on that faith. The ideal father son, father daughter relationship, is based on the relationship that Faith in God brings to us.

    It is our "first belief" at which the Holy Spirit becomes your constant companion, lighting our path, and revealing the things of the spirit to us. If however, your belief becomes unbelief because you haven't worked on retaining it, the Holy Spirit becomes "powerless" in your life because you have neglected and rejected Him.
     
  19. Rev. G

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    I must confess that I have read NONE of the posts to this thread. I am merely posting to answer the question posed.

    Q: "Arminians, are they saved?"
    A: Not all of them. Only those who have trusted Christ alone for salvation.

    I would further add this question and answer:

    Q: "Calvinists, are they saved?"
    A: Not all of them. Only those who have trusted Christ alone for salvation.

    Rev. G.
     
  20. BroChris

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    Amen, Rev. G! I was just about to say the same thing.
     

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