arminians are they saved?

Hmm so Calvinist evangelists can't actually stand up and quote 1John 2

"Christ died for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the Sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

Because this would cause a problem with those in attendance that don't know that "Whole world" is NOT them - it is the "arbitrarily selected FEW that may be among them at the time - the FEW of Matt 7".

Fascinating.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 16, 2002, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Read it over, Bob.

When did the Apostles ever employ the "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" line in their evangelism?

 

By the way, we certainly CAN quote 1 John 2:2. But it certainly isn't the "proof-text" you'd like it to be. If it was, there wouldn't be any "Calvinists."

Rev. G

[ November 16, 2002, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

Rev G. - It aint a prooftext - I just got off reading the worst anti-Arminiastic document

This Christopher Ness may have degrees and what not but man that "book" was a waste of my time - I much rather deal with people who can actually defend their viewpoints - and make decent accusations.

Im still looking for where kosmos refers just to Christians btw anyone care to share a verse

 

"It ain't a prooftext," huh? Okay. Square it with the "many" - as in when Jesus says that He has shed His blood for "many" (inaugurating the New Covenant), or in John 10 when Jesus says He gives His life for "the sheep" (and there is a sharp contrast with those who are not sheep). Or what about Isaiah 53?

Ness. Never heard of him.

kosmos - the Greek for "world" - where do you find that it ever refers to each and every individual in existence? Also, what is the CONTEXT in which St. John is using it? Is he writing as a Jew, showing that God's grace extends beyond the Hebrews, as He does in his Gospel, or not?

Rev. G

 

You'll learn Rev. G. never to challenge me to do something BWA HA HA HA HA HA

Kosmos
Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world <2889>; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Notice the world is a mass group with seed and tares as subgroups

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world <2889>, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Now this doesnt refer to a specific person, but rather place/time however you can actually insert the everybody meaning in and still not lose coherency

John 3:16 For God so loved the world <2889>, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world <2889> to condemn the world <2889>; but that the world <2889> through him might be saved.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world <2889>, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The kosmos in v19 is beyond Christians - in fact could be considered a sub-group of sinners. However that is often the problem with the English language - People tend to create new meanings out of the connotations and denotations of the word rather then sticking to the original meaning - This results in the overloading of the word and the arrival at contradictory or just plain different meanings which did NOT exist previously. Kosmos is Kosmos at least in the same chapter.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world <2889>, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Again referrring to both groups under the term world

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world <2889>, but to save the world <2889>.

Both groups under kosmos

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world <2889> to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world <2889> to confound the things which are mighty;

To reconcile the dying

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And of course 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now as to John 10 - He did not say they were not sheep - just that they weren't HIS sheep

Which they could be - if by the agency of prevenient grace they repented

Isaiah 53 - who else but sinners would deem Him afflicted? - If you cant bring those verses together - I will sigh for you