Arminians, Freewill, and Original Sin

I would argue that the depravity applicable to "ALL" without exception in Romans 3 can ONLY be at the level of the sinful nature with which all are born. Because Paul describes himself in 1Thess 1 as an "example that should be followed".

In Romans 6 this is called "slavery".

I would also argue that Gen 3 shows a "supernatural" element of division placed between sinful man and Satan by God - placing hatred or war between the kingdom of Satan and the children of God.

That is the second principle "applicable to all" without exception.

The result is freedom to choose salvation - but apart from salvation it does not allow freedom from slavery to sin.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it sin" James 4:17

 

Romans 10 and Romans 1 both argue that nature itself is the "preacher" and that it reaches all mankind.

Romans 2:13-16 then goes on to illustrate the case of one who without access to scripture "does instinctively the things of the law SHOWING that the works of the law ARE written on the heart". And at the end of Romans 2 we see that such a thing can only happen through the agency of the Holy Spirit working on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 10:
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Rom 2:14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. 4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

If the soul was dead at birth, it couldn't die!!

 

I am more and more convinced that man does indeed possess a measure of "free will". In the present post, I will not make a Scriptural argument. Instead I will argue that the evidence of the real world makes it manifestly clear - the unredeemed do not continually sin. I think that the "data of life" clearly shows that fallen man is actually a mix of good and evil. Now I feel comfortable that this position is also consistent with the Scriptures, but that's for another post.

I think we need to be honest and face the truth that the lost sometimes engage in genuinely good acts (I believe that many of you will argue that man in an unredeemed state is simply incapable of doing anything other than sin- correct me if I am wrong about this). The usual counter to the position that I hold is that the lost only appear to be doing good - their acts of apparent goodness actually have a sinister and self-seeking intent.

Given what I have seen in my 4 dozen years of living, this seems rather implausible. I cannot prove my point - I do not have the ability to "peek inside" the mind of another. However, I will say that the evidence that I have been exposed to suggests strongly that whatever it may mean for man to be fallen, it does not involve a complete eradication of his capability to do good.

I understand why texts like Romans 3 are seen to support a doctrine of total depravity - I think that such texts can legitimately taken as making a less strong claim about the extent of man's corruption.

 

My argument in the above is not that all the details of the gospel get presented -- even John the baptizer did not have "all the details" and we know that even Christ's disciples pre-cross did not understand "all the details".

But as Romans 1 points out the "Invisible attributes of God" are clearly seen even by pagans.

And as Romans 10 points out --

Romans 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”



The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows


Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God
(as we already saw in Romans 1) - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

 

Good point. I did forget to make it clear that I believe that acts of evil are indeed at least sometimes "free" in the sense that the person who commits them has some measure of control over that decision. This may not always be true. I do believe that people can enter a state where they truly are enslaved to sin. However, I believe that to get to that point they made free will decisions to sin.

I shamelessly confess that part of the reason that I believe in freedom to choose evil is the incomprehensibility of the notion that I am culpable for acts over which I have no control. I do not think this notion makes any sense at all and I humbly suggest that those who claim to believe it do not really believe it. However, I also think that the Scriptures support this view.

I suspect that people will claim that I am "filtering" God's Word through the lens of "human comprehensibility". Stated more simply, they will claim "it does not matter whether the doctrine makes sense to us, it is there in the Bible".

Well, at least for now, I will stick to my guns on this and make the following generalization: doctrinal statements that are ultimately non-comprehensible to us as human beings in the world of experience that we inhabit, are ultimately useless items of knowledge and can have no real influence on how we live and our role in the building of the kingdom.

 

Far be it from me to pound the pulpit.

You claim that but then you don't show it. By direct contrast we have

Romans 10

16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
"THEIR [b]VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]

 

The sin problem for an "infant" includes his/her natural predisposition to sin - the weakened moral nature that "naturally" seeks out sin. In Romans 3 we see this being described as the attribute for "all" and that "no not one" is exempt from it.

However an infant has no concept of sin and can not commit a sin knowingly or any other way. It simply experiences emotions and is incapable of moral decisions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As I have said before you sound like an Adventists - you are making the Adventist argument regarding sin.

Even as an adult to be "tempted" to sin - to have a sinful nature, to have a weakened fallen nature is still not "sin" nor "sinning". When Paul describes the struggle that he has in Romans 7 with "sin in my members at war with the law of my mind" that struggle is also "not sin".

Sin is a conscious decision to rebel against what God has said.

In Christ,

Bob