Arminians: It's a dirty Job, but somebdy had to be him?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Mar 23, 2003.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Arminians love to say things like "A loving God would never do this or that." So I have a question for them:

    Why would a loving God allow satan to torture Job?
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Who says "A loving GOd would never do this or that?" What is the context of those who say it? Does the plight of Job fall under that? What did God NOT allow Satan to do? Is Job a history or an alleghory? Does this matter?
     
  3. Frogman

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    Translation?

    Why do you ask the hard questions?

    Frogman :rolleyes:
     
  4. npetreley

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    Who says "A loving GOd would never do this or that?"</font>[/QUOTE]I can look for a quote if it is important to you, but do we need one?

    Yes, it does matter. If it is allegory, then God really didn't do it. If it is a true story, then God really did allow satan to torture Job.

    So if the other stuff about what arminians say or do not say bothers you, then forget about that and just answer the question: Why would a loving God allow satan to torture Job?
     
  5. Yelsew

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    There is a great deal of difference between a God who is love and a God who loves.

    One must determine which God they have faith in.

    If God is love, then Love is God!

    It seems to me that the outcome of Job's trials was that God rewarded Job for his faithfulness.
     
  6. KenH

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    The question is about the event, not the outcome.
     
  7. KenH

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    God is sovereign. He used the situation to teach Satan a lesson. And He teaches us a lesson to trust Him regardless of the circumstances in which we find ourselves. And He teaches us not to assume if events are going well in a person life that does not mean his relationship with God is humming along, nor if events are not going well in a person's life are we to assume that his relationship with God is lacking.
     
  8. Yelsew

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    The question is about the event, not the outcome. </font>[/QUOTE]The event is worthless without the outcome!
     
  9. Frogman

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    I am thankful the outcome is known by God before and during the event. Praise God

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    Are not ALL of Gods children in the same boat Job is in?... Hast thou considered by servant ????... You can all add your own name or do you think this only applies to Job?... Yes it was a true story but it is truer than you think!... Or do you all think God doesn't care what we do?... God... Satan you can touch any part of him you want to his possessions and his body... But his life belongs to ME!... Just call me JOB [​IMG] ... Or do you think you are never considered?... If you aren't you don't understand the book of Job... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  11. npetreley

    npetreley
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    God is sovereign. He used the situation to teach Satan a lesson. And He teaches us a lesson to trust Him regardless of the circumstances in which we find ourselves. And He teaches us not to assume if events are going well in a person life that does not mean his relationship with God is humming along, nor if events are not going well in a person's life are we to assume that his relationship with God is lacking. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, but that still doesn't quite address the question I was trying to ask. Consider this quote:

    Given that God describes His servant Job this way, did Job deserve this kind of treatment even for God to make a point? I would really like the arminians to answer this one.
     
  12. Yelsew

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    Was Job totally depraved?
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    npetreley,

    Why does a loving God take some Christians home to Heaven because they are not obeying Him? [I Cor. 11:30] Three different forms of chastisement are used by God. {weakness, sickness and death} As an Arminian Biblicist I still see the love of God in this extreme discipline of 'sleep' meaning death. His justice requires that He deals with Christians otherwise He would not be fair/just in sending sinners to Hell.

    The answer as to why God disciplines His people is found in I Corinthians 11:32. The rest of the world of sinners are already condemned to the regions of the lost, if they don't received Christ before their last human breath.

    A Christian who leads a careless Christian life might in their future be taken to Heaven early as a disobedient child of God, because of his or her very poor Christian testimony in front of the rest of the world's lost souls.
     
  14. npetreley

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    But God wasn't chastising Job. God simply gave satan a license to torture Job because satan wanted to prove that Job would cave in and stop worshipping God, and God wanted to prove to satan that he wouldn't cave.

    That has nothing to do with discipline or chastisement.

    So you didn't even come within light years of answering the question. Given that God just got done telling satan what a righteous and wonderful servant Job was, did Job deserve the torture he got as a result of satan's challenge?
     
  15. William C

    William C
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    Has anyone mentioned the most obvious reason for God allowing Satan to torture Job. The scripture clearly tells us the answer:

    9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason! 10 You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

    To test him.

    Why would God test faith that He gave? Why would he test intergrity that He created with someone? If God is the cause of Job's faithfulness why would he be inclined to test that faithfulness.

    Testing only seems consistant if Job's faithfulness was his choice, not God's doing, otherwise God would be just testing Himself which seems absurd.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Npetreley,

    I agree with your post 100%.

    Job did not deserve to go through the trial that God had planned, but apparently, it was for the greater glory of God. The true story probably teaches us to be strong when we go through our difficult trials of life. In all of this we must bow to the sovereignty of God as to how God worked in Job's life as well as in our lives.

    I only used the Corinthian believers as an illustration of how God's love is not always immediately recognized by saved people, meaning Christian people that we live around. God loved Job also, as He did those Corinthian believers who backslid away from the Lord but sovereignly disciplined them as well as chose Job to be used and tested in this way.
     
  17. npetreley

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    Even Job himself disagrees with you on this point, and I believe he is right. Toward the end of the book, God reveals His sovereign power in a long essay to Job in the form of a series of questions. Look at how Job responds:

    Now pay very careful attention to this next line...

    Job realized for the first time that he deserved much worse than what he got. All his righteousness was as filthy rags compared to God. All his former blessings (and later blessings, which were greater) were by God's grace and mercy, not having anything whatsoever to do with what he deserved.

    Bingo. We have a winner! ;)
     
  18. npetreley

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    You contradicted yourself (what a surprise). As you pointed out, God wasn't testing him, satan was. So your defense that it would be absurd for God to test himself contradicts your premise, and therefore makes no sense.
     
  19. Jimmy J.

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    Good point Bill [​IMG]
     
  20. ScottEmerson

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    Just a point: Job ended up getting a pretty good reward at the end of all of this, huh? He ended up better than he started.

    God did what He did to show His glory to the world. Through the testimony presented in the book of Job, many, many people have been able to grow closer to God in spite of hardships.

    ** Personally, I am inclined to think that Job actually began at chapter 3, with the Satan/GOd story added on a good bit later, perhaps ending before Elihu comes in. There is strong evidence that shows this. However, that is for another discussion in another area.

    God did not allow Satan to kill Job, which is noteworthy. I think that God was establishing not only Job as an upright man but Himself as a God who is to be feared and worshipped.

    All in all, I think we miss out on the larger picture. It sounds like many of us on the board are focusing on the torture element and missing the larger picture of faith, trust, and blessings.
     

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