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Arminians: It's a dirty Job, but somebdy had to be him?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Mar 23, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C New Member

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    Yes, I do have a problem with your system which dictates that for God to be sovereign he absolutely cannot allow his creation to be a free agent. I believe God is sovereign enough to accomplish man's ability to choose whom they will follow while still maintaining his sovereignity.

    Sovereignty means being in control. And it is quite obvious that God gives up control on some aspects in order to accomplish His purposes. Afterall, he did give this world over to the control of the prince of darkness, that is a self limiting choice of His control over the happenings of things within this world. I believe in foreordaination of events as we discussed earlier in that God knows all things and permits all things, but not that He must cause all things. I apply this principle of God's permissive will to man's choice to sin in the same way that I apply it to man's choice to follow Christ.

    I used to believe that man was born totally depraved until I became fimilar enough with the texts to see that man is not born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the truth, but they become that way through a process often refered to has hardening. Romans 1 is clear that the Gentiles were not born hardened but became futile in their thinking and depraved in their hearts after their rebellion from God's revealation and their living in sin. Calvinism teaches they are hardened from birth and that is never supported in the text. Granted the bible does teach man is sinful from birth and objects of wrath by nature, but never does it teach they are unable to see, hear, understand and turn to God for healing, in fact it teaches that this is exactly what the "MIGHT" do if not for their hardening. (Acts 28)

    Dallas, I think you have unintentionally misapplied my beliefs. I don't believe the apostles or select others (or anyone) were "totally depraved" in the way Calvinists teach. I believe that some of them may have been self hardened (ie Paul) and therefore were effectually called to gaurentee God's will in their life was carried out due to the significance of their calling. Like Jonah, Paul's will could not get in the way of accomplishing the sovereign plan of ushering in the new covenant of God's redemption to the world. Just like Judas' or Pharoah's will were hardened for the purpose of accomplishing a divine goal, so too Paul's will was broken for the purpose of accomplishing that same goal.

    I believe that the atonement is applied by God to all who believe.

    I do believe that there are a select number of people who were chosen to carry out God's divine purposes. They were granted powers, authority and inspiration that have not been granted to all man. You at least have to admit they were elect in that regard, for not all of us have been chosen for that purpose. Don't you think the scriptures might make some distinction in God's choice of divine messengers as apposed to his choice of their audience, especially since their audience was THE WORLD.

    I'm still struggling with this one to be honest. Roman 11 which clearly teaches us to fear God for if he would cut off his natural branches he will also cut us off seems pretty clear.

    Also the parable of the servant and the master seems to teach that after the servant received forgivness for his debt had that forgiveness revolked when he failed to forgive another. These passages and several others make me really question whether the gospel writers really wanted us to believe in the "security of the believer" dispite our behavior.

    I did not "devise" anything. I'm simply allowing scripture to speak for itself without making it say what my "system" forces it to say even when it obvious from the context that is not the intent of the author.
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Arminians don't say that, only universalists and skeptics do. Now, the idea that it would not be according to His love to send some to Hell after refusing them a chance to repent is based on what He has revealed in scripture, including the fact that man was created to glorify God (not just to sin and go to Hell).
     
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Arminians don't say that, only universalists and skeptics do. Now, the idea that it would not be according to His love to send some to Hell after refusing them a chance to repent is based on what He has revealed in scripture, including the fact that man was created to glorify God (not just to sin and go to Hell). </font>[/QUOTE]To all..

    God is glorified in the condemnation of sinners too. His perfect righteousness is praised; His perfect judgements are praised; and His almighty purpose of redemption is praised and magnified.

    I just thought that I'd throw that in.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  4. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Thanks. I was hoping someone would bring that up. It's amazing how this so often gets overlooked.
     
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    'Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?'

    'Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?'

    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    It's the punishment of wrongs that sinners refused to repent of (that they could have repented of) that glorifies God. Not the actual tormenting in its own right as an end in itself reached by people being deliberately trapped on a path to destruction by being refused a chance to repent, just to reach that end. Condemnation is a reactive measure, not a goal or part in a script that people are consigned to.
     
  7. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    Why would a loving God allow satan to torture Job?

    imo: so job could learn to not question god's apparently unfair treatment of him. sometimes growth hurts. i wonder what happened to the "curse god and die" lady? something tells me that she played a big role in his continuing spiritual development. [​IMG]
     
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Why do any of us suffer at the hands of Satan? It is to cause us the think on God.

    We all know that God is 'Good', therefore all that is 'bad' is of satan.

    Because we all have free will, God uses bad to bring us of our own will to him.
     
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It's the punishment of wrongs that sinners refused to repent of (that they could have repented of) that glorifies God. Not the actual tormenting in its own right as an end in itself reached by people being deliberately trapped on a path to destruction by being refused a chance to repent, just to reach that end. Condemnation is a reactive measure, not a goal or part in a script that people are consigned to. </font>[/QUOTE]Eric,

    You said: It's the punishment of wrongs that sinners refused to repent of (that they could have repented of) that glorifies God.

    This does not do justice to a Biblical Theology of Sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, God did not punish their actions alone. He punished them. Sin is not something that is done (well, not ONLY something that is done), it is all-pervasive and infects the whole of the person. Thus, Adam and Eve were punished and the created order was punished.

    You continue: Not the actual tormenting in its own right as an end in itself reached by people being deliberately trapped on a path to destruction by being refused a chance to repent, just to reach that end.

    They are not deliberatley traped on a path to destruction. They chose it. They are not refused a chance to repent.

    I return to my analogy: You think that God's electing work deals with Him stopping people from running out into the street and getting hit and killed by the oncoming traffic. This is not how it is.

    It is like God is walking on the interstate after rush hour and He sees all the dead people. He stops and brings some of them back to life.

    It is not that some are condemned and some are not. No. All are condemned. Grace is given to some--according to God's own purpose and good pleasure.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
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