Arminians using Calvinist solutions for OSAS

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by BobRyan, Jun 9, 2005.

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Do you believe in OSAS

  1. Yes

    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. I never thought about it

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Calvinism has two basic solutions to the OSAS problem of the guy that gets saved today but then fails to persevere ten years from today.

    Five pointers (accepting the Bible truth about perseverance) will retro-delete assurance of the saint back to today claiming they never were saved to begin with.

    Four pointers will ignore the Bible teaching on perseverance and argue that nothing the back sliding reprobate mass murderer does will stop him from going to heaven.

    This poll is for Arminians - Do you believe in OSAS and if so - which of these Calvinist solutions do you use?
     
  2. whetstone

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    one of the more interesting polls i've ever seen. [​IMG]
     
  3. StefanM

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    I can't answer the poll because question 3 does not have an "other" option.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    taking the first answer to number 3 and then indicating in number 4 that you have a solution to be posted -- is "roughly the same" thing because it says you do not accept the solutions listed in the poll.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    Were there any solutions in the poll?

    Looks to me like a matter of opinion about solutions not with solutions.
     
  6. Pipedude

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    It does seem to present a conundrum. If the apostate is declared "never saved" even though he spent years enjoying the full assurance of salvation and the accompanying fruits, who's to say that today's victorious Christian isn't similarly deceived?

    I've read a number of old Calvinists who didn't believe in full assurance. Until one had persevered until the end, he couldn't be sure of salvation. I seem to remember these writers living in the 19th century.

    E.g., Rosalind Goforth told a story about her mother and I recall her stating that, back in those days, it wasn't common for one to know for certain that he was saved.

    This would not have applied to Methodists, whose key doctrine was the witness of the Spirit.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    The Poll mentions the already existing "Solutions" that we have in 4PT Calvinism (No perseverance) and 5PT Calvinism (Perseverance required but assurance revoked if 10 years from now you fail to persevere).

    The last question opens the door to posting an Arminian solution on this thread that does not use either the 4PT Calvinist or 5PT Calvinist solution for the one that is saved today but fails to persevere 10 years from today.

    As I said - I don't have an Arminian defense for this but I would like to know how other Arminians do it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    I agree that the 5PT Calvinist solution preserves OSAS at the cost of assurance. But ideally there should be a way to separate the two.

    One point I "Like to make" against 5 PT Calvinists in that regard is "An Arminian can know that he is saved today but can not know if he will persevere 10 years from today and remain saved.... A 5 Point calvinist can not even know that!"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    So far only 1 person said they believe in OSAS but two people said they had an Arminian solution for OSAS - I would like to know what that Arminian solution is and what it would say in the case for a saved person today - failing to persevere 10 years from today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Faith Fact Feeling

    Faith Fact Feeling
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    Hey Bob, excellent poll. I think we need to distinguish between the perception of salvation versus it’s actuality. Of course this is our view versus God’s, with the later being speculated about based on theological constructs taken from scripture. I will primarily address the later.

    Since being saved 16 years ago I have been a faithful member of many small country East TN Baptist Churches, most of which are Southern Baptist. All of them were Arminian and OSAS. Of course I use the word Arminian loosely in the context it is used here regularly to mean someone who does not believe God arbitrarily zapps people to heaven or hell. From the viewpoint of a believer, which I think your poll took to a certain degree, I cannot truly know who is saved and who isn’t. Of course I say this with limitations that I can expand upon later. But in some cases a person with a profession in Christ living a wayward lifestyle might be saved. For example, it would be hard for anyone to believe the man in 1 Corinthians 5 was saved, especially if he were a member of your church, but Paul said he was.

    But from God’s perspective, of course He knows who is saved. He knew they would be before the foundation of the world, so the question really is what is the basis of salvation, and what does it offer. What is this lively hope (1 Peter 1:3)? I mentioned in a prior thread that I believe the basis of salvation is a free offer that when you accept, God pulls out all the stops to keep you, simply because He loves you as one of His children. Not children in the general sense in that all people are his children, but from the sense that after the new birth you are flesh of His flesh, and bone of His bone (Eph 5:30). You are adopted (Rom 8:15) from the theological sense of justification and imputed Christ’s righteousness, but you are blood kin from the respect of the new birth.

    I think this is the point that causes the overcorrection error we see in Calvinism. This concept of the new birth and God’s comments about being sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30) taken to an extreme is Calvinism. So the simple, bible-believing pastors of little country Baptist churches just explain it by saying those that are truly saved don’t depart from the faith. Now they may get woefully backslidden, but not depart. This is based on the perceived promise from scripture that Jesus doesn’t loose folks (John 17:12), nor does He cast them out (John 6:37), and He has promised them eternal life beginning at the point that they believe on Him (John 3:16)

    So Arminian OSAS, if I may say so, is based on God’s love and his promise, or Word if you will, that those that choose to love Him will be taken care of. What I mean by this is that upon accepting salvation, and having the new birth implanted, we then wait for the resurrection, and are given divine help along the way so that we make it. At the resurrection we are given a glorified body like that of Jesus that will be able to completely resist sin eternally. It is a decision we make, that in a sense, we have chosen to accept a contract with God to be neutered from sin eternally, and God is going to make good on that contract. After all mankind’s two biggest problems are sin and death. It appears to me He has provided and eternal solution to both problems.

    I know this will spark a great deal of discussion, and I have not even attempted to fully develop the underpinnings of this view scripturally, but it is, nonetheless, the view of a large body of people I have known and am now currently associated with in the Baptist community.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    I hope we can all agree that salvation is "By grace through faith" and that it involves regeneration. (Many Calvinists placing regeneration at a different spot than Arminians)

    However this issue of OSAS (and more specifically the assurance of salvation) requires that we consider the case of someone who is baptized today but fails to persevere 10 years from now.

    The 4 Point Calvinist solution is "failure to persevere does not mean anything". Thus they would have assurance today and not future failure would change it.

    The 5 Point Calvinist takes the Word of God seriously when it speaks of Perseverance and "enduring until the end" as it says that your faith is in vain if you do not do that. This means that they retro-delete assurance back to today if you fail to persevere ten years from now.

    FFF - in your answer above I can not tell if you are saying that a saved person WILL/Must always persever since Christ will make the persevere or if you are saying that since salvation is by grace through faith Christ is the one who holds on to you so even though you fail to persevere - you are in.

    OR are you going for another solution?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. dean198

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    I think the perseverance doctrine is far better than the OSAS no matter what doctrine. when I was a Calvinist I believed in perseverance, and it really annoyed me when I met other calvinists who didn't know the difference. Now I am Arminian (ye-hay) I simply believe the bible that says we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
     
  13. Faith Fact Feeling

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    Good question Bob. That is a touchy one to explain. And of course I am open to input, for what the Bible says is ultimately what matters. I was just thinking at lunch today how God doesn’t spell out theology in our terms, but reveals it on His terms for us to discern. I know that this is by design, and that the scripture is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Certainly that is true on an interpretation of theology level.

    I guess I just see salvation as something very serious and not superficial (not implying you do BTW). I don’t mean this from the standpoint of commitment or ability as in ministerial capability, witnessing, or things like that. I mean that I believe that at some point in a person’s life they reach a place where they choose to love God or not. This is not a recurring theme, but a point in your life where you let go of all trust in yourself and fall completely into the arms of Jesus. This is believing unto the saving of the soul as it says in Hebrews in my opinion. The nature of the relationship that is formed is one that has an enduring bond. A bond like that with your creator God is something big. And unlike a marriage between a man and a woman, you are joined with a perfect spouse, a spouse that died for even His enemies, and is dead set on keeping you as His. Something that serious cannot be discussed in non-weighty terms. Judgment, mercy, faith, these must be given special attention (Mat 23:23).

    So I am concerned that sometimes the discussion of perseverance can put too much emphasis on the legal aspects of works, or sovereign decree. I know you are a faith and grace guy, so you reject works as a means of justification. I see the means of justification as just what I described; a covenant love relationship with a perfect spouse. So I’m not sure I can answer this question in the framework you provided. You’re a smart fellow so you will probably find a way to hone my thoughts, but I think discussion of perseverance must be taken in conjunction with the nature of the relationship. If this relationship is viewed more superficially it is easier to see a break in it. That was kind of where I was going with the Calvinism stuff earlier. They do emphasize the relationship is unbreakably strong, but just for the wrong reasons. Rather than a legalistic decree from a cold sovereign judge, it is a warm, loving, caring relationship with an all powerful creator that cries over you, and holds on to you with divine power. I know this sounds a little mushy, but Jesus did cry in scripture. He does loves us. It is very strange for me to meet believers that do not take this relationship seriously, but I guess I never walked a mile in their shoes, so I cannot judge.

    So there is the quandary, maybe I’m more serious because of what gifts I have been given. Maybe I have nothing to boast of, and maybe I did less with what I was given than those who were given less, in God’s eyes anyway. But with regard to eternal security, I believe understanding the depth of the nature of the relationship is the key to answering that question. Like I said before, many I have met that believe you can loose it, do not believe it is easy to do so for someone who was truly saved.
     
  14. Sularis

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    I look at the Biblical saints and notice they doing sins around mid'ish-ministry - the fact that the old nature wars with the new - perhaps we are called to perserverance but preservation is the bottom line.

    Im kinda lazy ;)

    never did like that word perserverance - I much prefer preservation
     
  15. BobRyan

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    That is precisely what the 4 Point Calvinists argue. The result is a pretty good argument for assurance - since once you get it -- the backsliding axe murder thing does not stop you from continuing to be a born-again saint bound for glory.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    FFF - you emphasize the relationship as the main thing. In the 4 PT model this is also true. The relationship is so strong (and God was the one doing ALL the saving) so that even when you fail to persevere 10 years from now - (no matter how extreme) the actions that you do then - really don't end the relationship.

    As in your model - God may be weeping over the failures of the individual ten years from now -- but still holds on to them.

    Or are you saying that if the misdeeds done 10 years from now are "Severe enough" God will let go? (Or are you saying that IF the deeds are really whacko 10 years from now they probably never had a relationship to begin with - no matter how much it looked like they were saved?)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Faith Fact Feeling

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    I think that if I had to pick from these options this one would be it.

    Of course, by really whacko I'm thinking something really bad. God's carnal Corinthian church got drunk at the Lord's supper, and you also have that guy fornicating with his father's wife who Paul said was saved. Of course you could also have folks like this that are not saved too. In those matters, really only God knows for sure. I will think on it more, but for now I will at least go this far.

    See ya brother.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Ok so then it is the 5PT Calvinist solution "never was saved" to begin with. A good position that keeps the Bible concept of the Perseverance of the saints in tact -

    It is also in keeping with "preservation" in a sense - because if the person was never saved - there is nothing to "preserve".

    =================================

    2nd Question:

    What does that do to the assurance of salvation??

    (this is for both 5 Pt Calvinists and for Arminians that use that Calvinist solution for OSAS)

    If it is true that some future bad deeds (at whatever level of "bad" you will accept) can determine that you are not "Saved today" how can you have assurance without simply adopting an "I am assured ANYWAY" style of ignoring the conflicting principle regarding "perseverance"??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. rc

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    Any good Calvinist will say that you must work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING. A person SHOULD have serious doubts about who he is if his INCLINATIONS of his heart is toward sinning today repenting tomorrow attitude.

    Even Jonathan Edwards said that "Those who go around boasting in their salvation is NOT a sign of TRUE religious AFFECTIONS towards God" (From Religious Affections" J.E.

    Perserverance is a fruit to those who are saved.... assurance is that fragile confidence that we are His. I mean fragile because this is put in the context of how it is looked at. God knows who is His before time... we on the other hand in bondage of time, can only judge what has happened and the present. We can take by faith that God will never let us leave His hand, but our actions contrary to His commands can destroy our assurance.... and rightfully so!

    I find the ones that boast in their salvation AND ASSURANCE and do not weight their anctions are falsly converted and blinded by the evil one or are VERY immature Christians at best. A mature Christian clings to the words of preservation and assurance and relies on the grace of God to embrace them, knowing that they are only a sin away from loosing their ASSURANCE. (Not perseverance)
     
  20. BobRyan

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    So then you admit that assurance may be a fleeting thing. Perseverance is not fleeting if one is really saved (I would assume from the 5PT Calvinist POV) which is the very reason that it impacts assurance. If one fails to persevere 10 years from today it means today's "assurance" no matter how confidently felt claimed demonstrated is not really "valid".

    In the Arminian system where OSAS is rejected - a saint may "know" that they are saved tody - and so they are fully "assured" of their salvation - but they don't know that 10 years from today they will not fail to persevere and be lost. So they can KNOW if they "died today" they would go to heaven but they can not "know" about 10 years from today (in that particular model that rejects OSAS).

    The 5 Pt position can not even know that - since it can not be sure about today until it "sees" what will happen 10 years from today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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