Asking for book titles.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bronconagurski, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
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    Partial Preterists, give me your best book title for a futurist to understand the PP view

    Full Preterists, same request.

    Hyper Preterists, if that is different from full, same thing.

    I have many books in my library, some of which I don't agree with at all, but I like to educate myself. I am a dyed in the wool futurist, so I will not change imo, but at least I can understand where y'all are coming from and we can have a more civil dialogue and I can at least respect your view and vice-versa. It has been said that we are wary of what we don't understand, and I guess that is true to a certain extent. So any suggestions would be appreciated. I have to admit, before I came to this site, I knew about the view, but have never really understood the roots and what we may have in common. It seems to me that most Preterists are Calvinists, but don't quote me on that.
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    #2 Grasshopper, Aug 23, 2012
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    The bible and the future -Hoekema
    End times made simple-Waldron
    One momnetous event -Grier
    Postmillenialism , An Eschatology of Hope -Mathison
    He shall have Dominion -Gentry
    W. Hendrikson’s
    amillennial commentary, More Than Conquerors,

    You can find some used copies here.www.Alibris.com


    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=121804211311
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=121804211311
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12704141613
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12704141613
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12704141810
    This is from the preface to days of vengenance by Chilton found here:


    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf
    Pessimism
    The vast majority of Christians have believed that
    things will get progressively worse in almost every area
    of life until Jesus returns with His angels. Premillennialists
    believe that He will establish an earthly
    visible kingdom, with Christ in charge and bodily
    present. Amillennialists do not believe in any earthly
    visible kingdom prior to the final judgment. They
    believe that only the church and Christian schools and
    families will visibly represent the kingdom on earth,
    and the world will fall increasingly under the
    domination of Satan.7 Both eschatologies teach the
    earthly defeat of Christ’s church prior to His physical
    return in power.
    One problem with such an outlook is that when the
    predictable defeats in life come, Christians have a
    theological incentive to shrug their shoulders, and say
    to themselves, “That’s life. That’s the way God
    prophesied it would be. Things are getting worse.” They
    read the dreary headlines of the daily newspaper, and
    they think to themselves, “Jesus’ Second Coming is just
    around the corner.” The inner strength that people
    need to re-bound from life’s normal external defeats is
    sapped by a theology that preaches inevitable earthly
    defeat for the church of Jesus Christ. People think to
    themselves: “If even God’s holy church cannot
    triumph, then how can I expect to triumph?”
    Christians therefore become the psychological captives
    of newspaper-selling pessimistic headlines.
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Aug 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2012
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf


    Here is a bit more from Days of Vengenance;
    Ezekiel’s lament over Tyre
    is transformed into a lament over Jerusalem, the reason
    being that St. John wishes to transfer to Jerusalem the
    note of irrevocable doom found in the lament over Tyre.
    Here lies the real difference in the messages of the two
    books. Jerusalem, like Tyre, is to go forever.”45 Consider
    the more obvious parallels:46
    1. The Throne-Vision (Rev. 4/Ezek. 1)
    2. The Book (Rev. 5/Ezek. 2-3)
    3. The Four Plagues (Rev. 6:1-8/Ezek. 5)
    4. The Slain under the Altar (Rev. 6:9-11/Ezek. 6)
    5. The Wrath of God (Rev. 6:12-17/Ezek. 7)
    6. The Seal on the Saint’s Foreheads (Rev. 7/Ezek. 9)
    7. The Coals from the Altar (Rev. 8/Ezek. 10)
    8. No More Delay (Rev. 10:1-7 /Ezek. 12)
    9. The Eating of the Book (Rev. 10:8 -11/Ezek. 2)
    10. The Measuring of the Temple
    (Rev. 11:1-2/Ezek. 40-43)
    11. Jerusalem and Sodom (Rev. 11:8/Ezek. 16)
    12. The Cup of Wrath (Rev. 14/Ezek. 23)
    13. The Vine of the Land (Rev. 14:18-20/Ezek. 15)
    14. The Great Harlot (Rev. 17-18 /Ezek. 16, 23)
    15. The Lament over the City (Rev. 18/Ezek. 27)
    16. The Scavengers’ Feast (Rev. 19/Ezek. 39)
    17. The First Resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6/Ezek. 37)
    18. The Battle with Gog and Magog
    (Rev. 20:7-9/Ezek. 38-39)
    19. The New Jerusalem (Rev. 21/Ezek. 40-48)
    20. The River of Life (Rev. 22/Ezek. 47)

    Bski...many amill and post mill see rev, as the story of two women,The bride,and the harlot.....with the Lamb that was slain as the centerpiece!
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Aug 24, 2012
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    For instance, let’s take a much-abused symbol from
    Revelation and apply this principle. In Rev. 7, 9, 14
    and 22, St. John sees God’s people sealed on their
    foreheads with His name; and in Rev. 13 he writes of
    the worshipers of the Beast, who are designated on
    their right hands and foreheads with his mark
    . Many
    fanciful interpretations have been made regarding
    these marks – ranging from tattoos and amusementpark
    validations to credit cards and Social Security
    numbers – and all without the slightest notice of the
    clear Biblical allusions. But what would the first readers
    of these passages have thought? The symbols would
    have made them think immediately of several Biblical
    references: the “mark” of sweat on Adam’s forehead,
    signifying God’s Curse on his disobedience (Gen. 3:19);
    the forehead of the High Priest, marked with gold
    letters proclaiming that he was now HOLY TO THE
    LORD (Ex. 28:36); Deuteronomy 6:6-8 and Ezekiel
    9:4-6, in which the servants of God are “marked” on
    the hand and forehead with the law of God, and thus
    receive blessing and protection in His name. The
    followers of the Beast, on the other hand, receive his
    mark of ownership: submission to ungodly, statist,
    antichristian law. The mark in Revelation is not meant
    to be taken literally. It is an allusion to an Old
    Testament symbol that spoke of a man’s total obedience
    to God, and it stands as a warning that our god –
    whether it be the true God or the self-deified State –
    demands complete obedience to his lordship.
    That will be the principle of interpretation followed in
    this commentary. The Revelation is a revelation: It was
    meant to be understood. Benjamin Warfield wrote:
    “John’s Apocalypse need not be other than easy: all its
    symbols are either obvious natural ones, or else have
    their roots planted in the Old Testament poets and
    prophets and the figurative language of Jesus and his
    apostles. No one who knows his Bible need despair of
    reading this book with profit. Above all, he who can
    understand our Lord’s great discourse concerning the
    last things (Matt. 24), cannot fail to understand the
    Apocalypse, which is founded on that discourse and
    scarcely advances beyond it.”68
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation by Philip Mauro (1921)

    "A Study of the Last Two Visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet Discourse of the Lord Jesus Christ"

    PP to the hilt, but the word 'preterist' is not to be found in it. Another:

    The Hope of Israel: What Is It? (1922) By Philip Mauro

    "Not giving heed to Jewish fables" - Titus 1:14

    Introduction:

    "There are certain Prophetic passages in the Old Testament, which, apart from the light afforded by the New, might be taken as relating to "Israel after the flesh," and as foretelling the restoration, at some future day, of their national greatness.

    The erroneous doctrine of the teachers of Israel was based upon an unspiritual interpretation of their own Scriptures; for "they know not the voices of their prophets which were read every sabbath day."

    Another:

    The Gospel of the Kingdom (1927) By Philip Mauro

    Introduction:

    "THROUGH an incident of recent occurrence I was made aware of the extent--far greater than I had imagined--to which the modern system of dispensationalism has found acceptance amongst orthodox christians; and also of the extent--correspondingly great--to which the recently published "Scofield Bible" (which is the main vehicle of the new system of doctrine referred to) has usurped the place of authority that belongs to God's Bible alone."

    "The fact is that dispensationalism is modernism. It is modernism, moreover, of a very pernicious sort, such that it must have a "Bible" of its own for the propagation of its peculiar doctrines, since they are not in the Word of God. Ample proof of this will be given in the pages that follow."
     
  7. kyredneck

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    #7 kyredneck, Aug 24, 2012
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  8. Bronconagurski

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    Thanks for the suggestions.

    I have already started finding some of these on the web at used prices.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Stay with what you know, until the Lord makes something else clear.
     
  10. Bronconagurski

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    I will, and thanks for the advice. The preacher under whose preaching I got saved believed in the gap theory, and not a small gap either. He believed there were millions of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I never did believe that and do not until this day. He gave me some material to support his side, but gave me the same advice. He told me there were great men of God on both sides and to let God direct me thru the scriptures. Every great controversy in the bible is usually a controversy because there is credible evidence for different views. My main concern in getting this material is to understand more fully the preterist view. If God changes my mind, it will be from the scripture and after much prayer. If I understand a view more fully, I can at least agree to disagree with views that don't matter when it comes to whether one is truly one of the elect.
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    Always remember to read and try to find the plain and literal intended meaning of the text!
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    I believe we all are given some truth, and some things we need to keep searching out to keep us sharp.
    Jesus said to occupy until he comes...this is plenty for us to focus on!

    Even so, there is much to study also. At first i felt uneasy re-studying things I thought were true...but i want what the scripture actually says.

    Another thing I have found...for each truth.....there are those who go one or two steps PAST where the scripture goes......Full preterist, Hyper cals,etc
    The truth is within the hedge of protection that God has given in the scriptures.
     
  13. Bronconagurski

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    Did find out something new about Preterism

    So to be fair, I will post it. Preterists say that pretrib and premill views have not been around very long. I have found out otherwise, but I thought the preterist view was the new one, but Woodrow Kroll clued me in otherwise with this:

    "First of all, preterism's been around since the first century. The whole concept that the Book of Revelation is a past event is not new. Some of the church fathers held this concept. But the understanding of Revelation itself as an entire past event probably didn't take place until about the 16th century.

    There was, at the Council of Trent, which was basically held as a response or a reaction to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent, a Spanish Jesuit by the name of Luis D. Alcazar wrote a book, a 900-page book, by the way, on Revelation in which he interpreted all of Revelation as a historical event." - Woodrow Kroll
     
  14. asterisktom

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    Let me add a few to your list for your consideration:
    Don Preston's books, like the fllowing, are helpful in understanding the FP view (which I have).
    http://www.eschatology.org/announcements/3-newsflash/188-new-book-who-is-this-babylon-revised. Who is this Babylon? is just one of several of his.

    Also, "The Parousia", by James Stuart Russell, is a classic work that is worth reading. When I first read it in the 90s I wrote mostly negative comments in the margin. When I reread it about 2-3 years ago it made a lot more sense, though I still don't agree with all of it.

    Edit:
    If you were to choose only one book of Preston's I would rather suggest this one, especially since it touches upon a question that you had brought up in a different thread.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0938855255/?tag=baptis04-20
     
    #14 asterisktom, Aug 25, 2012
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  15. asterisktom

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    I, of course, deny this. I am a full Preterist. At the same time I give supreme deference to the Bible.

    What line did I cross, brother? Like you, "I want what the scripture actually says." Scriptural actually says - Christ says - that His Parousia would be in the lifetime of at least some of His hearers. (I would bring up verses here, but don't want to derail this thread.)

    This is the kind of ill-informed comment that Preterists often have to deal with. But I guess it comes with the territory.
     
    #15 asterisktom, Aug 25, 2012
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  16. Bronconagurski

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    Thanks. I found "The Parousia" online for free as a pdf file so I downloaded it already. It seems that Russell is not a full preterist, which I presume is where y'all part ways.
     
  17. asterisktom

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    Actually, I was thinking of his views on the Antichrist. But it is true that some might not consider him full preterist. But it seems that both FP and PP claim him as being in their camp.

    Anyway he did a lot of studying on the subject, definitely worth reading, as is Sproul's forward to the book.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Hello Tom,
    I believe Jesus came in the judgement of 70 ad...but not that he physically appeared.....God has often been described as coming in judgement.
    I do believe He is returning In His glorified Spiritual body on the last day.
    I know the verses you are thinking of...for the most part. There are some standing here...who shall not see death until they see...etc.
    I see no problem with the partial view, or The second coming of the last day. [at this point, you believe i have not gone far enough]
    As time permits....you could offer why , or what verses you believe suggest that there is no second coming on the last day.
    All the confessions look for a return....Why do you think they are wrong?
    This is why I say ...full preterists go one or two steps beyond scripture...not that they do not have a high regard for scripture, but it seems as if they force some of the verses to say more than they do.
    No rush...but if you can offer what you can. As time permits..I will search for russel online...on preterist archive.:thumbsup:
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Aug 25, 2012
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  19. asterisktom

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    Icon, for now I just want to point to what you have written here, Does this not seem to be inconsistent?

    1. You point to the confessions as your evidence.
    2. You then make the leap of saying, essentially, that my disagreement with the confessions (and on this point I do) is going "beyond scripture".

    If I am going beyond Scripture, show me from Scripture where I am going beyond. Why even mention the confessions?

    I know you did not intend it, but your comments put the confessions on a par with Scripture. There is a reason for that.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Hello Tom,
    The confessions point to scripture as the only rule of faith and practice. The confessions give a mainline view of the believing church.
    Well...i do not think I made that leap. I asked you as time permits to show how most all of the church have not gone on to a full preterist position.
    When I mention the confessions...it was only to say that I am not aware of a full preterist confession of faith.
    The position starts out okay...but runs out of gas in that the nature of the coming in the clouds...gets pressed more than what scripture would indicate.

    The judgement was ......the sign of the Son of Man...In Heaven....I do not see a bodily return here???




    I do not see how it addresses this statement;
    There is a
    1]going

    2]A...coming again

    3]a place...where I am

    4] there we will be also....after a coming again
    Many who understand the time texts also see a second coming clearly taught...besides the coming in judgement of 70 ad. The White throne judgement, and Jn 5 last day are still future.




    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    29 For our God is a consuming fire
    .[/QUOTE]

    With Ot Israel as the theocracy being shaken...{70ad} verse 28-29 indicate we receiving a Kingdom serve with Godly fear...for our God is a consuming fire...there is still judgement beyond the shaking of israel in 70 ad, that is yet to come.
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Aug 26, 2012
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