At what point did Jesus pay for our sins?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Glory Bound, Apr 5, 2004.

  1. Glory Bound

    Glory Bound
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    This question arose in our Sunday School class this past Sunday. The reason this came up was because of the recent focus on Jesus' physical suffering so dramatized by "The Passion of The Christ" film.

    Bible Truths:
    1. The Bible says Hell is the final destination for all who do not recognize Jesus as their savior.

    2. Jesus took our (Christians) sin penalty in our place.

    The question is this: At what point did Jesus pay for our sins?

    One view:
    From the very first assault on his person through to his death on the cross. Each and every insult, whip stroke, mocking word, etc. was one more portion of paying the price for our sins.

    Another view:
    Hell is described as as place of torment, most say that Hell is total separation from God (which brings the torment). Therefore Jesus actually paid our sin penalty at the time God turned his back on Jesus while on the cross, creating that separation between the Son and the Father. It was during this time that our sins were laid on Jesus.


    Perhaps another way to ask is this: was it the physical torment (of the beatings) or the spiritual torment (of the separation from the Father) that paid our sins?

    What is your view?
     
  2. NateT

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    My view is that in the OT, on the day of atonement, an animal was sacrificed to atone for the sins. Jesus Christ is our atonement, so I would think it was when Jesus died that he paid for our sins.

    But that's just my uneducated view.
     
  3. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    If you have to pick a specific time, I would say when He "gave up the ghost," and the veil in the temple was torn. The tearing of that veil symbolized that the seperation between a holy God and sinful man had been removed and the price paid.
     
  4. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
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    While I would feel uncomfortable claiming that the Bible teaches only one understanding of the atonement (most commonly this is understood by evangelical Christians as penal substitution similar to what you have described above), in my estimations the atonement should be understood as flowing not only from Jesus' death but from his entire work (streaching from incarnation to judgment day).

    Heresy can be created in one of two ways, either failing to define what certain things mean (making things too broad and inclusive and thus meaningless) or by over defining theological propositions (making things too narrow and exclusive and thus reductive).

    The statements of faith of the General Association of General Baptists to which I belong says it this way:

    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG]
     
  5. Glory Bound

    Glory Bound
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    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]You make a good point, Daniel. I see this as a description of Jesus' atonement in a broad, or general sense. We could actually go back further, from the creation or before, because God already knew what His plan was.

    But being somewhat more specific (without discounting Jesus' earlier works), isn't there a specific point in which he takes on our sins? Didn't the so-called "road to Calvary" led up to this specific point?

    His death sealed the sin payment, since that was required in our place. Without His death there would be no substitution for our own penalty of death.

    But was it only His death? Was it the beatings applied by man? Was it the time of darkness? Was it the time Jesus cried out that the Father had "forsaken" him?

    Inquiring minds want to know! ;)
     
  6. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
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    Glory,

    I guess what I'm bucking against is the understanding of the atonement as strickly a "sin payment." I think you would be hard pressed to make a case for that view from certain portrates in scripture (e.g., Mark or the lamb of Revelation), so I would tend to say that there are several approaches to soteriology in scripture and therefore theologically I need to hedge a bit to avoid over-definition.

    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG]
     
  7. Daniel David

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    The primary emphasis of the atonement is as a sin payment.

    However, Christ's death actually provided more than just forgiveness/salvation for man.

    1. He became king over all creation.
    2. He purchased the redemption of the earth (Rom. 8).
    3. He conquered the power of the evil one.
    4. etc.
     
  8. freakpastor

    freakpastor
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    When did He pay? I feel His payment began at His incarnation. At this point He was physically one of us and not in the presence of the Glory of The Father(Payment) He resisted ALL temptation. Many people actually think Christ was tempted only three times as the account is recorded.
    Separation, self-denial, persecution, and death were all a price He paid.

    When did He take on our sin? When God turned His face from His only son because the Father can not look upon sin.

    Two separate questions.
     
  9. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
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    5. Deliverance from social oppression through suffering.
    6. Atonement as revelation of God.

    I think this question is very closely tied to Jesus' person (Christology). It has been a problem in theological reflection that we have separated who Jesus is from his work. These two must be understood together. Again this points to the need to hedge a bit with respect to overdefinition of atonement, and when we woodenly place one model of soteriology as "the" model we are committing the same error that people do when they form Jesus into their own image. Instead, in this case they make Jesus into the savior of their own felt needs. Maybe the best approach would be to see the multiple ways that both Jesus is portrayed and how his work is understood to provide a broad picture of what is "core" to Christian theology and mission.

    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG]
     
  10. Bro. Jeff

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    Chronologically, perhaps it was when He said "It is finished".

    I'd guess, in my sanctified imagination :D , that it would be when He died.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    The Catholic view of penance has influenced Gibson (how much blood was there in the film? how many beatings compared to the Bible record?) and much of the discussion.

    There is an aspect of the atonement in the life of Christ as in His death. But He DIED for my sin.

    Atonement must be focused on the salient point. His death.
     
  12. Glory Bound

    Glory Bound
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    When did the Father apply our sins to Jesus? When did Jesus become sinful in our place?

    Do we know a specific point in time? Was it when he was beaten? Was it when the sky turned black? Or when Jesus cried out "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" Was it when He died?

    I realize that Jesus' entire life was for this ultimate purpose - and I'm not discounting that. God cannot fellowship with sin - and Jesus became sin in our place.

    Which was worse for Jesus: the physical beatings, or the spiritual act of becoming our sin sacrifice?
     
  13. freakpastor

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    I think it would be the spiritual act. Had you rather be beaten or seperated from the Almighty?
     
  14. Glory Bound

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    John McArthur agrees, based on what I heard this morning.

    To be completely honest, I don't think any of us can fully understand what full separation from God would be like. Even now the unsaved are at least surrounded by the presence of God in the world.

    Most of us at least have some idea regarding physical suffering, and that's easier for us to understand. Perhaps that's why the focus often is on Jesus' physical ordeal.

    Any thoughts on when Jesus began to endure the spiritual suffering? Did God "forsake" him during the beatings... or when the sky turned dark? I've always thought it was the latter - but I suppose that's just one possibility.
     
  15. superdave

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    'Chronologically, perhaps it was when He said "It is finished".'

    I was kinda thinking the same thing myself, seems pretty obvious since Jesus told us :D
     
  16. Turbeville

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    At his death on the Cross is when he assumed all the sins of the world...past, present and future! His physical death was because of sin and not what the romans did to him!
     
  17. Artimaeus

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    Before His death our sins were not paid for, after His death they were. Seems sort of simple to me. Of course, He had to be the spotless lamb prior to His death but, being the spotless lamb did not make the payment, it was just the right currency. The price wasn't paid until He died.

    ...Christ died for the ungodly.

    while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

    For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

    Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
     
  18. Abiyah

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    Well, rats. I hate to be disagreeable, but I believe that He paid the price from the beginning. The Bible says that He is the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world. Time does not limit our God; it limits humanity.

    Our Lord, the Author of the Word, gave His life from the very beginning, at a time for which there is no accounting.
     
  19. superdave

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    Still, The reconciliation had not taken place chronologically until Jesus experienced Spiritual Death (Separation from the Father) Signified by Jesus statement on the cross "It is Finished" Followed by his physical death. He had to experience both. He also went to Sheol/Hades during his three days in the grave, and spoke to the OT Saints, and many believe based on Ephesians that he took them to Heaven with him at the ascension, since he had completed their reconciliation.

    The Scriptural evidence seems to point to the price being paid at a specific time in history, at Calvary.

    I would consider the above quote to be a reference to God's plan for the ages, since as you say he is not linear in his viewpoint. He had planned from the beginning that Jesus would be the Lamb, slain to demonstrate God's mercy and grace to his creation. Not necessarily that the work of redemption had been accomplished at that point.
     
  20. Abiyah

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    However, if it were true that His sacrifice was good only upon His death, all before His death were lost, which we both know not to be true. People were saved from the beginning of time, Abel being the first one who was surely saved in this manner. What saved him? The righteousness imparted by our Lord through His death, which was already in effect. Certainly, the Bible says that some of these saved ones were in Hades, the place of the departed dead, both saved and unsaved, until our Lord went there during His death, but some of the saved dead were not there, as the Bible relates.

    His death was effectual from the beginning of time, with the sacrifices being the visual demonstrations of His death to the saints of old. The Bible is clear that the blood of bulls and goats saved no one; their salvation was completely dependant upon our Lord's sacrifice, and they knew that, or they were not saved.
     

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