Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?

Your response makes no sense! Where did I say "ten kingdoms arise AFTER the final hour"???????

The "ten toes" in Daniel 2 are identical with the "ten horns" in Daniel 7 and in Revelation 17:12:

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

That "one hour with the beast" includes the battle of Armageddon when Christ defeats him:

Rev. 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.....Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 8 refers to the Grecian not the Persian or the Roman kingdom and to temple on earth not in heaven and to the "daily" sacrifice and not 2300 years.

 

But later "innexplicably" Walter said

Was that just another one of your practice runs at ranting and nonsequitters or do you not understand the text in my post highlighted above?

in Christ,

Bob

 

The work of our High Preist in heaven is presented as FINISHED and it is upon the basis of that FINISHED work he is SEATED on the throne IN ORDER TO take possession of what is His by right because of His FINISHED work. He has presented himself in heaven as the rightful heir of all creation based upon his FINISHED atonement. Now the heir is SEATED on the "throne" which explains his role now in heaven as one who is RULING and TAKING POSSESSION of what he has already purchased and owns but has not taken complete possession of as of yet.

The Holy Spirit as the "Spirit of Christ" is applying that FINISHED work UPON EARTH in keeping with Christ' FINISHED work presented in heaven and Jesus is SEATED upon the Throne to rebuke Satan, hell and high waters from false accusations, attempts to claim jump or attempts to derail Christ from taking possession of what is His by right of a FINISHED redemption. Christ as our High Priest is now TAKING POSSESSION of what is His by rights of a FINISHED redemption and this is signified by the Seven sealed book in his right hand.

He is not up in heaven as a house keeper trying clean up any mess in the heavenly sanctuary. He is not there TRYING his best to save what he has purchased and owns. He is ruling and directing the Holy Spirit as one "sent" by Him and the Father to possess, protect and preserve and apply what is His by right of a FINISHED redemption.

The so-called cultic cleansing of the heavenly temple is absolute spiritual garbage not to be beleived by anyone that can read a Bible.

 

Then innexplicably Walter said in response to the Daniel 7 details above --

As if that is some kind of analysis of Dan 7 -- so I then provide the Dan 7 text

Dan 7
17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
==============

And I add this note --

Details "in the text" debunking your claims:

1. In 1John 2:18 John does say that all of the NT era is "the final hour" - so that is 2000 years so far, not sure how you imagine this to help your case.
2. At the time of John the division of Rome into 10 had not taken place yet.
3. The 1260 years of Dan 7 are never said to happen in "one hour" in all of scripture, nor does John claim such a thing.

And historically - everybody knows that the pagan Roman empire fell before the dark ages and that in the dark ages the saints are persecuted even after the fall of pagan Rome - for centuries - not for 3.5 years -- thus the consistent day for year model in Dan 7, 8, 9.

This just could not be any easier.

--------------------------------

Walter then responds with

1. The is no "ten toes" focus in Daniel 2 and the toes mentioned are not equivalent to Pagan Rome in Dan 7 or to the division of Pagan Rome prior to the time of Papal Rome. In other words - Dan 2 does not give the level of detail that you find in Dan 7. Each vision is adding detail.

2. The Iron of Daniel 2 is the 4th empire (Rome: -- not the Iron mixed with Clay).

3. When pagan Rome collapses and then Papal Rome arises you have the "iron mixed with clay" - but prior to that time Rome divided into the ten kingdoms because Papal Rome uproots 3 of those ten to begin its 1260 year domination of the saints.

1. Daniel is not writing at the time of John the revelator.
2. When John writes in 1John 2 he says "it is the last hour".
3. John is living at a time BEFORE the Ten divisions of pagan Rome.
4. In John's day ONE of the 4 empires listed in Dan 7 and Dan 2 is STILL in full power. The Iron of Dan 2, and the terrifying beast of Dan 7:7 - pagan Rome.

5. Innexplicably you choose to jump ahead to Rev 17 -- There John gives a time context reference by telling the reader that the 7 heads are seven kingdoms - "five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come" -- thus the point of reference John gives is not that of Daniel nor even a point in time for his own generation - but a point in the future even to his own generation.

Your efforts to mix in Rev 17 with Dan 7 just because you don't like the details in Dan 7 - do not work.

Whuhuh!!???

Dan 8
20 "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
21 "The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Stick with the text. Your efforts to jump to other books do not help you with the inconvenient details in the text at hand.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That I idea was debunked -- Page 1
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1622693&postcount=6

Where we see in text after text that Paul claims Christ was still engaged in his High Priestly role in heaven at the time of the writing of the letter of Hebrews.

The idea that Christ is not now engaged in His Ministry in Heaven as our High Priest - was debunked again here - only in more detail.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1623055&postcount=23

Instead of responding to the details in the text of Hebrews quotes above that so totally disconfirm your claims - you merely repeat the claims.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As you were shown already

1. - the LXX refutes your view,
2. Your idea that Ex 29:38-39 uses the same "Evening and morning" formula as Dan 8 collapsed entirely.
3. And now we have seen a number of other Bible scholars (all non-SDA) admitting to the obvious fact that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8 are to be taken as 2300 days.

As you were shown - the text of Dan 8 does not used your much hoped for "morning and evening" formula in Ex 29 - that you claimed to be the "Evening and morning" formula we find in Dan 8:14. And even the LXX emphasis this point that the Dan 8:14 text indicates 2300 days.

So also do non-SDA bible scholars agree with the LXX and the reading of Dan 8 in the Hebrew text -

You can keep repeating your assertions no matter the Bible evidence to the contrary, if you like.

As already noted

in Christ,

Bob

 

What a messed up and confused mind you have and no wonder the way you perversely deal with scriptures. You cannot honestly jerk 1 John 2:18 and insert it into Revelation 17!!!!!!!!!!! John is talking about many antrichrist in the present hour of his day (first century) in 1 John but in Revelation he is talking something beyond his time (which you admit in #2 below) that is called the final "hour" when the ten kings and beast wage war with Christ at Armageddon.

You are following the eschatalogical teaching of a demon inspired woman and that is why you cannot see that the battle in Revelation 17 between Christ and the Antichrist at the final "hour" of this age is also the very same battle described in Daniel 7:21-22,26,27 when Christ comes with the saints and puts down the antichrist:

Dan. 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast

Certainly pagan Rome fell before the Dark ages but the split of the image into two legs present the split in Religious Rome into the Eastern and Western Empires that continue up to the coming of Christ when "ten toes" or "ten kings" join with the antichrist at the battle of Armageddon against Christ.

The ten toes in Daniel two after the split of the Easter and Western legs of Religious Romam Empire are the same "ten horns" on the fourth beast who in Daniel 7:20 join in with the Beast and are the same "ten horns" in Revelation 7:12 that join in the with the Beast.

Not so! The collapse of the Secular Roman Empire occurs where the trunk of the waist splits into two legs. The two legs are the division of the RELIGIOUS Roman Empire into its Eastern and Western Divisions and the ten toes mixed with iron and clay are the final ten kings from out of these divisions that rise to power with the Antichrist at the end of this age yet in the future when they fight Christ at Armageddon.

But John is interpeting Daniel and I will go with John's inspired interpretation of Daniel rather than with the demon led Ellen G. White interpretation (and her lying prophetic fruits demonstrate she is demon led).

John is talking about the FIRST CENTURY or the present "hour" in which he lives and about MANY antichrists at large in first John. In Revelation 17:12, even as you admit, he is talking about something future from his own time and he pin points that time as the final "hour" of this age when Armgeddon occurs as a battle between Christ and these ten kings with the beast or final antichrist.

My oh my what profound display of ignorance! The ram was defeated prior to verse 14 in verses 3-7. It is the four divisions or four generals of Alexander the Great that are in view in verse 8 and in verses 9-14 it is Antiochus Epiphanes that is in view. Read verses 21-24 and you will see that it is you that has departed from the text:

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

When shall this dark person arise? Answer - "IN THE LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM"

Whose KINGDOM? The GRECIAN KINGDOM - "The king of Grecia....four kingdoms stand up out of THE NATION......IN THE LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM"

Not the Persian or Roman kingdom!!!!!

 

Walter says,

and later,

However sensational, these accusations have no bearing on the discussion at hand. I had a personal experience with this when I once dared to disagree with an elder at a Bible study. I didn't know the elder and he didn't know me, but in frustration when he couldn't answer a question he could have just as easily ignored he began to analyze me and my history which he knew almost nothing about. He succeeded temporarily to divert from the facts of the text. I have seen this tactic used by others and it is a time-waster.

Just noticing that Bob has presented no evidence but from Scripture and well-known Bible commentators. Bob has not used EGW's writings or words to sustain any doctrines in this or any thread on this board that I have read. Let's use our time wisely.

God bless!

 

False prophets have demons as the origin of their doctrines (1 Tim. 4:1; 1 Jn. 4:1) and Mrs. White is a thoroughly well documented false prophet. Bob's so-called Biblical arguments are nothing but parroting of Mrs. White's teaching and anyone who has read Mrs. White's teaching on this subject can easily see that. Bob is not using Scripture, but abusing it to support his false prophet. Lump it or like it that is the reality and if you think not, then simply pick up Mrs. White's teaching on this subject and you will not find one iota difference. Bob is following Mrs. White's line of thinking, a proven false prophet, and false prophets obtain their leadership from demons not God.

Now some don't like exposing Mrs. White for what she is or her followers for what they are but that is not my problem, it is simply the plain truth that can be easily well documented as I have already done in part.

 

What point Bob? In 1John 2:2 a Greek word for propitiation is used which means satisfaction.
You respond by quoting from the OT Hebrew which does not use Greek. What nonsense is this? The Day of Atonement has nothing to do with 1John 2:2. Your argument is self-defeating. I don't suggest that the translaor's (most of them) got it wrong. You did. It is not what the NT testament either says or means. The propitiation spoken of in 1John 2:2 is the legal satisfaction that Christ made on the Cross to satisfy the demands of God that the penalty of our sins had been paid in full. Context gives meaning. The OT does not, and neither does Bob Ryan.

 

DHK you need to "pick a lane". Either you admit that the atonement was made at the cross or you think that is error and that only "appeasement" was made at the cross.

In the atonement model "God so loved the World that He gave".

In the propitiation-appeasement model - Christ so suffered that the angry deity was asuaged.

You seem to argue that atonement does not allow for your idea of propitiation (and thus that the NIV "Atoning Sacrifice" rendering is horribly wrong for hilasmos) so you are apparently leaping off the cliff of the pagan idea of appeasing the angry deity.

But in that case you would be arguing against the idea of atonement at the cross. (Are you really thinking this through or is this another one of your "whatever BobRyan says -- not" lines of argument??)

Maybe more time thinking about it in your case would be helpful.

Meanwhile the texts in the post you pretend not to understand show the use of the same word in 1John 2:2 being used for atonement.

The point remains -- obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Walter said -

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

That "one hour with the beast" includes the battle of Armageddon when Christ defeats him:

Since you are using nothing but ad hominem as the "evidence" in favor of your wild claim - I assume you do not intend us to take your concusion seriously.

And to confirm this fact - you innexplicably turn around and admit that John is referencing a point beyond his time.

Your confusion is apparent at that point. Interestingly you try to avoid the context of Rev 17:9-11 whenever you quote Rev 17:12.

9 "" Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
10 ""and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
11 ""The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.


As noted - this takes us beyond the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 7. It takes us to a point where 5 have fallen -- which means that the little horn power of Dan 7 had received what Rev 13 calls "a deadly wound".

Your efforts to add even more apocalyptic details to the direct straightforward scenario of Dan 7 would be helpful if you were accepting the obvious points of Dan 7 and moving on - but you seem to be looking for every means possible not to get the basic details as you then pile on more details which you misalign as well based on paying so little attention to the details of Dan 7 and 8.

In Dan 7 the Roman power and the Greek power are future - so also the ten divisions of pagan Rome and the papacy and the dark ages.

In Rev 17 John takes us forward to a time when Rome had fallen and the papacy had received the Rev 13 "deadly wound" already - and then predicts that from that point of reference - there was coming a future time when the 10 kingdoms would be revived to receive power for "an hour".

In Dan 7 the saints are not "persecuted for an hour" but for 1260 years.

Your efforts to mix the two did not help your solution.

Your glossing over the details of Dan 7 and of history missed entirely the division of the Roman state into 10 and the rise of the little horn power (the papacy) and the start of the 1260 years of domination of the little horn power, inserting false doctrine and overpowering the saints.

Dan 2 does not get into that level of detail and the ten toes of Dan 2 are added to the feet which are already "partly of clay and partly of iron" which is the divided and fallen state of the pagan Roman empire.

In fact the legs begin "as two" -- pagan Rome did not start out as the split religious world of 1000 A.D. Pagan Rome was long gone by then.

You cannot push the details of Dan 7 into Dan 2 as if Dan 2 had the same level of detail when it covers that period of history.

Rather details are ADDED starting with Dan 2 then 7 then 8 and then 9.

Your error is clearly stated here -

Dan 2:32 Belly and thighs of Bronze (Greece) and not a claim that Greece was split into two thighs.

Dan 2:33 "LEGS of Iron" -- (pagan Rome) and not a claim that pagan Rome was a two part empire.

Your view that the "Legs of Iron" represent FALLEN pagan Roman empire at the time when the Papal Romans empire split -- as being the START of Rome taking over Greece (belly and thighs) could never be accepted by the serious student of history or the Bible.

Why do you go to such an extreme?

Hint - the vision of Daniel 8 starts in vs 3 where the Ram is "standing" not fallen. And Dan 8:20 states that the Ram is Persia and Media. In vs 4 the Ram is in power conquering in the directions of West, North and South and no one is able to stand against him.

The question is "How long is the VISION" and clearly the vision STARTS in vs 3 with a dominate Persian empire.

Again this is just stating the simple obvious facts IN the text itself. Not sure why you are so insistent upon denying the basic details so easily referenced and seen in the text!

What kind of strategy is that?

Hint: The fierce and powerful ("his power shall be mighty") little horn of Dan 8 is the same little horn of Dan 7.

By comparison to Greece and Persia - Papal Rome grew to be "exceedingly great" toward the south and east and Jerusalem and the Pope did claim the title of Vicar of Christ on earth even to the point of forgiving sin and changing the law (a point made on Fox News interview by Mike Huckabee recently as it turns out and indicated in a thread started here) .

Thus the angel is correct to point out that the events in the vision go all the way down to "the time of the end" Dan 8:17.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are easy prey for false prophets, Walter. False prophets mix truth with error and the devil is a master at reverse-psychology. If a false teacher, preacher or prophet writes or believes something 1) it doesn't mean it is error. 2) it doesn't mean it originated with them.

Are you thinking this through? It is a waste of time, when someone like BobRyan stays with Scripture and common sources for you to start the ad-hominem attack from the back.

I was in dialogue with someone else re: something the Catholic church taught. I am a protestant but this poster was insisting in the same manner you are that because the Catholic church taught something, it was evil. That is not protestant. That is prejudice. Pre-judice is prejudicial in that because someone believes something, never mind the text, it is deemed wrong.

You say Bob is "abusing scripture." It is your burden, from the Scriptures alone to respond. Christianity with paganism, sheep with wolves, poison with truth, this is how false prophets operate. Just because "someone taught it" or "wrote about it" doesn't make it wrong. The devil is a reverse-psychologist. He will bring reproach upon truth in this way.

God bless!

 

Your problem is with the Scriptures not me. The Scriptures command us to put prophets to the test (1 Jn. 4:1). The Scriptures declare their "doctrine" is derived from devils (1 Jn. 4:1). The Scripture commands us to expose them (Rom. 16:17). It is a simple Biblical principle that proven false prophets and their doctrines are demonic in origin and so any denomination, teacher, disciple that is following them is equally embracing demonic teaching and thereby being led by demons. It is an easy Biblical principle and if you don't apply it you are the one who is the prey for false prophets and demons. Think about it before you respond!

I never said that everything a false teacher, preacher, prophet writes or beleives originates from demons. I explicitly stated that the positions being presented by Bob are thought for thought expressions of Ellen G. White and if you don't believe that it is because you have not done your homework and you need to be educated and perhaps that education is being brought your way by yours truly.

I have responded and demonstrated he is wrong. Like all cultist, it does not matter how often or how much you prove them wrong they will simply ignore what you have stated and continue to repeat their prophets' teaching like a mocking bird. Hence, there is a time in such a discussion to simply call a spade a spade because it is futile to continue to repeat and repeat the same truths tha the cultist chooses to ignore.

Don't take anything I have said as mean spirited but please consider carefully before responding.

 

Walter, there is a time for everything. It is your burden to show that this doctrine is derived from devils using the Scripture alone. All we understand by your continued ad hominem, "well, you eat with drunkards and gluttons!" is that you are unable to do it. I understand your intentions and believe you mean well, but this method is used by all kinds of people to no avail and you would strengthen yourself by abandoning it.

God bless!

 

Going back to our original point of contention. The Great High Preist in Heaven.

May I ask you if the High Preist in the Old Testament ever sat down in regard to ANY ASPECT OF HIS WORK??? Did Aaron take a seat after he made the sacrifice at the brazen altar? Did he take a seat after he sprinkled the blood in the holy place? Did he take a seat after he sprinkled the blood in the holy of holies?

The answer is no! Hence, let us look at the Antitype. When did Christ as our High Priest take a seat? Did he do it here before the cross? Did he do it on the cross? Did he do it at the resurrection?

The answer is no! He took a seat as our High Priest when he entered heaven AFTER taking the seven sealed book from the right Hand of His Father, then he ascended to the throne and became SEATED at the right hand of the Father "UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BECOME HIS FOOTSTOOL."

My point is simple. The Great High priestly work PICTURED in Aaron and in all that Aaron did is FINISHED when Christ became SEATED. The cross finished that work. The resurrection proved it was finished. The asension into heaven presented it as FINISHED and reception of the book and being SEATED declared it was FINISHED and He has the right and power to take possession of what he PURCHASED by his own blood.

What Christ is doing in heaven right now is SITTING ON THE THRONE with the seven sealed book and removing those seals as he takes POSSESSION of what is His by redemptive purchase.

In regard to His people, some have already lived and died and are in heaven as the "spirits of just men made perfect" while others are living on earth and through the Person of the Holy Spirit he is taking possession of them as his purchased people and regenerating, justifying, sanctifying them and will receive them into heaven at their death as to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." In regard to those not yet born, He will take possession of them as well as His redemptive possessions.

Taking possession of them by the Person and work of the Holy Spirit as the Third Person in the Trinity's covenant obligations is the UNFINISHED work of The Holy Spirit in His covenant obligations (work) but the covenant obligations of the Second Person has been FINISHED and being seated DECLARES it so. The work of the First Person and His covenant obligation is UNFINISHED (Jn. 6:44-45). All Three Persons of the Godhead have covenant obligatons in the "everlasting covenant" and only the Son's obligations have been FINISHED. The Son is now SEATED but not just anywhere. He is SEATED upon THE THRONE signifying that His work is not as the Lamb but as the LION of the Tribe of Judah - the King who is claiming His rights due to His FINISHED redemptive purchase and is now taking POSSESSION of His inheritance (of which the elect are part) through the UNFINISHED work of the First and Second Persons of the Godhead ON EARTH.

 

How naive! Who says one must use scripture alone? Who says one must ignore historical facts and other relative data???? Where in the Bible does it say that? It is one thing to eat "WITH" and it quite another thing eat WHAT they eat an drink WHAT they drink. I understand you mean well but you are naive.

BTW how could YOU even obey 1 Jn 4:1 apart from considering their historical acts and words?

How do you view and deal with the "Biblical" arguments that I have given to Bob in post #57 and Post #58?

 

May I ask if you view translators and translation as given by inspiration or do you reserve that for the original in the language it was given? If you view translators and translations as inspired then how could you reject any translation with its translations such as the New World Translation as inspired?