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Featured Atonement theories?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, Sep 29, 2012.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the answer is plain from the bible that God chose us on an individual basis to be saved, as it is NOT corporate Election, but on an individual basis, as sinners to be saved by the death of Christ!
     
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Well, that's about the funniest and most untrue thing I've ever heard.

    Want to talk about who gets edited? You have apparently not read enough to comment on that.

    Christus Victor is not a liberal view, and it is the most orthodox of views, having been held for the first millennium, and by the Eastern Orthodox Church! :laugh:
     
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Every view after the first millennium is a contrivance by the Latin West. The oldest view and the only one completely consistent with scripture is Christus Victor.
     
  4. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    I am comfortable in saying that it is obvious that Jesus died on the cross and we did not. If He died in our place, then we should not still have to die. I can agree only with certain aspects of substitution, as these are compatible with Christus Victor.


    About the quotes of the Fathers: I have already answered this many times. Some people want to read penal substitution, a 16th century invention of Calvin, back into the writings of some of the Fathers, but to do so, they have to take their comments out of the context in which they were written.

    I've posted this before, but go here and click on the PDF article to see the truth of what I said in my preceding paragraph. This article by Derek Flood is illuminating and answers your questions: http://www.therebelgod.com/2010/04/substitutionary-atonement-and-church.html

    Here is the article in direct download (hope it works): http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html...ebelgod.com/AtonementFathersEQ.pdf&images=yes
     
    #104 Michael Wrenn, Oct 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Look, I really don't want to say anything bad about anyone on here.

    I have become friends with two people whom I had serious run-ins with. If it could happen with them, I wouldn't want to say it couldn't happen with the Rev and OR. :)
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Brother it doesn't bother me that you are wrong. We are good! :thumbsup:
     
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I will give you this. It takes a lot of nerve to say someone is attacking are accusing. At least someone with a liberal view who understands the issue makes a sensible post. No doubt all appreciate your allowing the freedom to disagree with your always accurate theological views.
     
  8. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    THOUGHTS ON THE ARTICLE:

    1. I again, as in Derek Floods other article on Christus Victor, feel that he unfairly represents the Penal Substitution view a view that rejects all other accomplishments of the cross, for example:

    I would think one who holds to penal substitution would likely also agree with these other effects of the Cross.

    2. The following quote, is an admission the even centuries before Anselm, a view that the cross satisfied some requirement of God was partially understood...Which is similar to what I am say...It is not either-or, there were bits and pieces of several atonement views...which is probably as it should be, since the accomplisments of Christ's death were multi-faceted:

    3. The following ideas were a new way to think about it for me. They do not seem to be Derek's main point, but perhaps they are...These quotes FINALLY, for me, show why Christ's death was absolutely necessary under the Christus Victor model:

    -Ie, according to this view, God DOES have wrath toward sin, but the answer is not to punish someone else for our sin, but to remove our sin so that the cause of God's wrath is no longer there...I am curious as to how this works out with life-long sanctification: I am not completely free of sin now, so is God partially still angry with me until I am perfected?

    4. IN conclusion, I do not deny that Christ's death does these things, but I think, even after Derek can show a few (not all) early Fathers who seemed to explicitly deny substitutionary punishment, we are left with some significant Scriptural passages, which unlike the fathers, are inspired Words from God, that seem to speak of God chastising his son for us. So I would say the Christus Victor model accurately describes lots of the effects of the Cross, except where it explicitly denies the inclusion of Christ's death satisfying God's Justice by taking the punishment we deserved.
     
  9. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Lingering questions about Christus Victor:

    1. Does this view necessarily lead to universalism? The articles I have read do not discuss what happens to those who reject Christ's sacrifice, but they do minimize or negate God's wrath toward sinners, so in this model, what is hell?

    2. Does it bother conservative holders of Christus victor that their model is THE primary model adopted by liberal theologians?

    3. Early Ransom Theory held that Christ paid a ransom to Satan for our souls. Modern Chrstus Victor does not exactly believe this, correct?
     
  10. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    THOUGHTS ON THE ARTICLE:

    1. I again, as in Derek Floods other article on Christus Victor, feel that he unfairly represents the Penal Substitution view a view that rejects all other accomplishments of the cross, for example:



    I would think one who holds to penal substitution would likely also agree with these other effects of the Cross.

    2. The following quote, is an admission the even centuries before Anselm, a view that the cross satisfied some requirement of God was partially understood...Which is similar to what I am say...It is not either-or, there were bits and pieces of several atonement views...which is probably as it should be, since the accomplisments of Christ's death were multi-faceted:



    3. The following ideas were a new way to think about it for me. They do not seem to be Derek's main point, but perhaps they are...These quotes FINALLY, for me, show why Christ's death was absolutely necessary under the Christus Victor model:


    And I'm glad you see that. I have stated it, but it had been denied.


    -Ie, according to this view, God DOES have wrath toward sin, but the answer is not to punish someone else for our sin, but to remove our sin so that the cause of God's wrath is no longer there...I am curious as to how this works out with life-long sanctification: I am not completely free of sin now, so is God partially still angry with me until I am perfected?

    4. IN conclusion, I do not deny that Christ's death does these things, but I think, even after Derek can show a few (not all) early Fathers who seemed to explicitly deny substitutionary punishment, we are left with some significant Scriptural passages, which unlike the fathers, are inspired Words from God, that seem to speak of God chastising his son for us. So I would say the Christus Victor model accurately describes lots of the effects of the Cross, except where it explicitly denies the inclusion of Christ's death satisfying God's Justice by taking the punishment we deserved.[/QUOTE]

    See my answer above, in red.
     
  11. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    That is correct.

    It should also be mentioned that many in the historic "peace churches" hold to the Christus Victor view.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Pitchback

    Did anyone say God did not choose us individually? Nope, yet Yeshua1 rails against his misrepresentation. Note, he did not address the answer to his question. On and on he goes, simply posting falsehood.

    Only when a person is spiritually placed in Christ are their sins removed by the circumcision of Christ. This does not nullify the fact Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

    All mankind has been set apart under the new Covenant in His blood, but only those spiritually placed in Christ receive the reconciliation provided.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did Christ have to die to set mankind free of the hostile powers? Nope.

    Why is mankind fallen? The many (mankind) were made sinners. Who made us sinners? The devil? The world? The flesh? Or God?

    Why were we separated, i.e. put into a sinful state? Our iniquity caused a separation with God.

    So why do we need to be "reconciled" to God? Because we are "ungodly" and the size of our sin debt, depends upon how we have sinned volitionally.

    How are we reconciled, forgiven, and made perfect, i.e. without any flaw that would require separation? When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh (sin) is removed. Thus when God puts us spiritually in Christ we are united with Christ, and reconciled to God. Thus we are reconciled with God.
     
  14. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    Does that matter? Isn't PS true?
     
  15. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    However christus victor seem to deny PS firmly!
     
  16. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    Such discussions help those large number of people who hold on to the christus victor & deny PS see further truth.
     
  17. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    Isaiah 53:6: "the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all".

    Was only sin punished? Wasn't Jesus punished as our substitute?
     
  18. Steven_15

    Steven_15 Member

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    Sinners will be in eternal hell. They won't experience the other things because they aren't on a mission of redemption ad Jesus was.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Most popular among Baptists, especially among Calvinists and reformed types!
     
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