Authoritive Writings

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 30, 2007.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    I am opening this up to hopefully get a direct answer from our resident SDA, BobRyan, since of all people he should know.

    I have seen postings that Ellen White's writings concerning Christian doctrines are seen as equal to God's Word by the SDA. Is this true?

    Also, is Ellen's writings concerning Christian doctrines infallible by the SDA?

    If no, what has Ellen written concerning Christian doctrine that is viewed by the church as in error?

    Note that I am not concerned with Ellen's predictions that may or may not have failed. I want to know about her writings concerning the correct application of God's Word to the Christian's life. I believe this is what the SDA holds as infallible, if this is incorrect I desire to know.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Part 1.

    Ellen White is considered by SDAs to be someone with the legitimate spiritual gift of prophecy as defined in Numbers 12 (for Miriam and Aaron in that case) in 1Cor 12 and in 1Cor 14 "desire earnestly spiritual gifts but especially that you may prophesy".

    Part 2.

    She is considered to be a non-canonical writer -- that is - she is not writing scripture. Her prophesies are considered to be like any other prophet mentioned in scripture that did not actually write scripture. Philip's daughters, the people in 1Cor 14, Agabus, Nathan, Anna in the NT, etc.

    Part 3.

    SDAs argue that ALL doctrine is to be established "sola scriptua" which by definition excludes ALL non-Bible prophets. So no "Ellen White says" followed by "and that is why I believe this doctrine".

    Just like no "anna says" or "Agabus says" etc.

    Part 4.

    Having said that - we do not believe that "a lesser god" inspired non-canonical prophets. We believe it is the SAME God and that the only value in ANY prophetic message is that the source is God. So for example there is not "less God" in what Agabus says than in what Anna or Peter say in the NT.

    Part 5.

    We do not believe the prophet is infallible even in the case of someone like Peter. We believe GOD is infallible and the message HE gives to someone with the spiritual gift of prophecy (be they Peter or Ellen White or Anna or Agabus) is infallible.


    Part 6 -

    Having said that - prophets do have a role of ministry, authorty in God's church such that the people who accept them are held accountable for what God says through that prophet. One can not say "hey I did not know that don't hold me accountable" if you have Biblical support - Bible evidence that someone is a prophet. So a prophet comes to me (let's say for example) and says God has given a message for me that I should not drink alcohol nor even sell it in my business. If I have been able to determine from scripture that this person is a true prophet then I am "accountable". The message does not violate scripture and given that the messages from that person have already passed the test of a prophet - I am on the hook so to speak.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Oct 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2007
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    She Should ne examined

    Granted that I will approach this subject with the utmost skeptism as I do not believe God will add 1 more "biblical" prophet, male or female, to His people we should examine White's prophesies. Since she is regarded in her prophesying to be equal to an OT prophet then she ought to be judged as one.

    I will begin to read her prophesies and see what the outcome was.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

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    Eyewitness accounts

    Of course, I am googling. I would obtain the original work of the following but I can't find it except for $310.00 on Amazon. Nevertheless, this adds some measure of credibility to the source.

    "Ellen G. Harmon... was strangely exercised in body and mind...falling to the floor... (we remember catching her twice to save her from falling upon the floor)... in meetings she would speak with great vehemence and rapidity until falling down, when, as she claimed, wonderful views of heaven and what was being transacted there were shown her. She claimed to have seen that Christ had left the office of mediation and assumed that of Judge, had closed the door of mercy, and was blotting out the names, from the book of life.... We saw her in Poland, Portland, Topsham, and Brunswick during the beginning of this career, and often heard her speak, and several times saw her fall, and heard her relate wonders which she said her heavenly Father permitted her to see. Her supernatural or abnormal views were not readily understood as visions, but as spiritual views of unseen things, which were quite common among the Methodists.... These visions were but the echoes of Elder [Joseph] Turner and others' preaching, and we regard them as the product of the overexcited imagination of her mind, and not as facts."
    (Isaac Wellcome, History of the Second Advent Message (Yarmouth, Maine: Advent Christian Publication Society, 1874); Jacob Brinkerhoff, The Seventh-day Adventists and Mrs. White's Visions (Marion, Iowa: Advent and Sabbath Advocate, 1884), 4-6.)

    This second quote is from Lucinda Burdick

    ""I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. At the time of my first acquaintance with them they were in a wild fanaticism, --used to sit on the floor instead of chairs, and creep around the floor like little children. Such freaks were considered a mark of humility. They were not married, but traveling together. Ellen was having what was called visions: said God had shown her in vision that Jesus Christ arose on the tenth day of the seventh month, 1844, and shut the door of mercy; had left forever the mediatorial throne; the whole world was doomed and lost, and there never could be another sinner saved. She very soon pretended to see that Saturday must be kept as the Sabbath. Her visions were something new, and there seemed to be first no decided opposition to them in the different churches where they traveled. They caused a great deal of discussion and excitement, and all seemed disposed to investigate. But, after a little while, her visions began to conflict one with the other. It was ascertained by myself and others who saw her in vision, that she could throw herself into vision when she chose (this she confessed), but that James White could control them, and bring her out when he pleased."
    (An Examination of Mrs. Ellen White's Visions, Miles Grant, Boston: Published by the Advent Christian Publication Society, 1877)


    Here are two allegedly eyewitness saying the same thing. White's teaching that Jesus has forever left his role/office/ministry of mediator.

    Brethren, if this is true its enough to know she was a heretic.

    RB
     
  5. steaver

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    Brother BobRyan I read over your post carefully three times. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying as to answering my question.

    Is Ellen's "writings" concerning Christian doctrines infallible according to the SDA church?

    IF some of her writings concerning Christian doctrines are viewed by the SDA church as in error, which ones are they? Are there any?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Two things to consider.

    1. Once you reject the 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 instruction on spiritual gifts -- the exercise is over.

    2. If you want to overlook that then the next test is in the form of messages that doctrinally agree with your view of scripture. "To the Law and to the prophets if they speak not according to this word -- no light in them" -- that is another test of a prophet when it comes to messages they claim to have From God.

    God is not doctrinally "incorrect" so if the message IS -- then they can not be speaking from God.

    So if you are Calvinist - you will find that her messages are distinctly Arminian -- you would have to reject her.

    If you are Catholic you will find that her messages clearly condemn praying to the dead, using images, purgatory and the authority of the Popes. So if you believe that those RC teachings are in harmony with scripture then clearly - you would view her's as being out of line with it -- again you would reject her claim to being a true prophet.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    I get that a lot from you Steaver - :laugh:

    Details details Steaver -- it is all in the details.:applause:

    As my post pointed out clearly - both of those statements are incorrect.

    Please read the post. Only God is infallible.

    in Christ,

    Bob]
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Hint for the serious students -- all of her actual writings are available free on the internet.

    No need to go to third and fourth hand "I heard that Ellen White said one time" style sources.

    But if that is purpose to start with -- then you will find what you seek.:sleeping_2:

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

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    Can you confirm or deny the above eye-witness accounts? The above quotes were from eye-witnesses, and themselves a source, which I cannot obtain to have a primary source, so I will need to use credible secondary sources for now. I would not expect to find is Ms. White's works the eye-witness testimony of others.
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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  11. BobRyan

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    I don't know anything about those supposed eye-witnesses. I certainly am no eye-witness since she died around 1914.

    I do know this quote from Story of Redemption IS accurate and true to context.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. steaver

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    I know I get very detailed. It is because specifics get lost many times in your postings.

    First, they are not "statements" they are questions. They both cannot be "incorrect" as you say. If the first question is "no" then you can give me a writing of Ellen's (on Christian doctrine) that the SDA views as fallible.

    As you said, "details, details". I know that ALL men and women are fallible and God alone is infallible. I don't think you need to waste alot of posting trying to persuade anyone of this.

    All of the biblical writers were "fallible beings". These are not my questions. The questions are specific on the "writings". Could you answer the above questions for me given i outlined the "details" in the questions for you?

    God bless! :thumbs:
     
  13. BobRyan

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    The details in the post I already gave are in line with the fact that EVEN PAUL was being tested "sola scriptura" in Acts 17:11 "To SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were so".

    They did not take the approach "well Paul said it so it must be infallible since whatever Paul thinks or says in infallible" how much less room is there for taking that unbiblical approach with non-canonical prophets like Ellen White.

    Having said that - I do find that her messages from God have compared well with scripture AND obviously compare well with SDA doctrine.

    This is why I keep stating the obvious point that IF one were able to successfully show from scripture that SDA doctrine is incorrect on some point where Ellen White claimed to have an approving message from God - then that alone would disprove Ellen White.

    "How much more obvious" can this be???

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    ALL of her writings are fallable. How much easier can this be??

    But to the extent that her messages STAND the test of scripture claimed as being from God - then they are CORRECT. God alone is INFALLIBLE.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Examples of things she claimed in the form of messages from God -

    1. The 2300 years of Dan 8 ended in 1844
    2. The judgment of Dan 7, 2Cor5, Rom2 started in 1844
    3. The Ten Commandments are still valid - including the 4th
    4. Catholicism and Protestantism would eventually cooperate well together instead of being hostile to each other as they were in the 19th century.
    5. The United States would eventually become the dominant Nation Power on earth.
    6. Civil liberties in the U.S would be more and more restricted to promote safety and stability in US society.
    7. A strong Christian "right" in the U.S would evolve that would seek political influence, blurring the line between separation of church and state.
    8. Satan would use the confusion over the state of the dead as "dormant" to convince Christians that they are seeing dead humans talking to them.

    9. No pretrib rapture.

    10. God takes the saints to heaven after the tribulation and kills all the wicked that remain -- so desolate earth.

    Etc Etc.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    ALL of her writings are fallible.

    ALL of your posts are fallible

    ALL of my posts are fallible

    But ALL of MY posts are "correct".:laugh:

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    Ok Bob. While I am continuing to research this movement, it should be acknowledged that while this woman taught the sins of God's people would be placed on Satan, she denies that this is substitution. She has used the imagery of the OT scapegoat where the sins of Israel were imputed to an animal and the people went free.

    If this is not penal substition then what is? If Satan is the scapegoat and not Christ, then what is happening with the sins of God's elect? Furthermore, since you have affirmed Sola Scriptura, that the Scriptures alone are sufficient for doctrine, correction, reproof, et. where is this teaching in Scripture?

    Your church's official fundamental belief is the following:

    "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

    1. What is meant by authoritative source?
    2. If a person rejects this so-called prophetess are they then considered not to be Christians?
    3. Why do we need White's words to"make clear" that the Bible is the standard?
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Ellen White herself stated that her writings were not needed if one simply stays with the Word of God and follows it. She called her work "the lesser light that always points to the greater light" meaning that she wanted people to go back to the Bible and not wander away from it's teachings.

    Haivng said that - she gave a truck load of personnal corrective messages to individuals and provided a great deal of insight into the future.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    The fact of Leviticus is that the only thing that serves as a sacrifice for sins is "a sin offering" which is always a "burnt offering" and is always an animal slain.

    ONLY the Lord's Goat in Lev 16 is designated uniquely as "THE sin offering" only IT is slain when it comes to a comparison with the scapegoat.

    The scapegoat is NOT a sin offering is NOT an animal sacrifice and does NOT pay for sin in any substitutionary way.

    Christ's blood ALONE provides the "Atoning Sacrifice" 1john 2:2 -- His blod alone has the effect of forgiveness.

    1. NO TEXT says "Christ is our scapegoat"
    2. NO text says "the scapegoat is sacrificed" or is a "burnt offering"

    In Lev 16 we see the final disposition of ALL sin - not just the sins of the saints - but also the sins of the wicked. In the case of the Lord's Goat the sins of the saints are paid for - forgiven by the blood. In the case of the sins of the wicked including ALL their sins in the form of tempting the saints to sin - are placed back upon the wicked.

    Christ said in Matt 7 "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter" so in the Lev 16 service not EVERYONE in camp is a saint though ALL have had their sin sacrifices during the year.

    So in the symbology there is a symbol showing that while Christ is paying for the sins of the saints - the wicked go off to pay their own debt of sin but NOT in substitutionary or atoning way.

    Thus final disposition (solution) for ALL sin (even the sin of the unforgiven wicked) is shown in that service.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Authorotative source in the context that "scripture ALONE is the standard for ALL doctrine" - has this meaning. God says that his people should listen to HIS prophets. But He also says "TEST the prophets" and even Paul says "Though WE or an angel from heaven should teach a gospel CONTRARY to what has been given let them be accursed!" Gal 1.

    Paul was not saying "We apostles and the angels are all infallible sources believe whatever we say no matter how you may think it contradicts scripture". To say such a thing is to endorse the RCC false doctrine of infallability - trusting a source other than God as being infallible just due to the fact of the source rather than TESTING ALL sources.

    That warning applies to us all.

    in Christ,

    bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, Oct 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2007

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