Authority

Hi ChristianCynic,

Do you have anything to contribute to the dialogue?

May God bless you,

Carson

 

Just to be fair, since I asked people why they voted a certain way, I will state how I voted. I voted that Scripture is the final authority, because it is the revealed will of God.

 

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In the Old Testament God spoke through prophets, which words were written down for us and recorded in Scripure.
In the New Testament God has spoken (past tense) through His Son, which words were recorded by the Apostles and written down by the Apostles.
In the Old Testament we have Jesus Christ concealed; in the New, Jesus Christ revealed.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--Jesus Christ, the Word was revealed to us through the incarnation. The Apostles saw Him They recorded what they saw.

2Pet.2:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
--Here in 2Peter 2:16-13, Peter records one of the most glorious events that he had ever witnessed in his lifetime, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ, when also he saw Moses and Elijah on the Mount with Christ in all His majesty.

2Pet.2:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
--But greater still than the greatest of all his experiences with Christ is the Word of God. He says: "We also have a more sure word of prophecy." He speaks of New Testament revelation. It came not just in old time. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. I believe he is speaking both of Old Testament and New Testament writers here. These are not man's words, not by the will of man he says, but as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Thus our final authority is the Bible. Christ Himself deemed it to be so.
DHK

[ December 09, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

So then for you the Bible has more authority than Christ?

 

Have you not already read these wonderful contributions I have so generously put forward? Perhaps I need to copyright them.

 

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

 

Adam, the "WORD" IN John 1:1 is Jesus, not the Bible.

 

Too bad Scripture doesn't support this.

Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Jesus said that what the Apostles bound on earth would be bound in Heaven.

While the Scriptures themselves tell us the the Scriptures are "useful" and "profitable".

You may continue to make an idol of your Bible if you wish.

I on the other hand will believe Jesus's words over yours any time.

Ron

 

Too bad Scripture doesn't support this.

Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Jesus said that what the Apostles bound on earth would be bound in Heaven.

While the Scriptures themselves tell us the the Scriptures are "useful" and "profitable".

You may continue to make an idol of your Bible if you wish.

I on the other hand will believe Jesus's words over yours any time.

Ron</font>[/QUOTE]You continue to take Scripture out of its context. Let's get one thing straight from the beginning. The verse you quoted from Ephesians was addressed to the Ephesian local church. Church (ekklesia) means assembly. It was not talking of the Catholic church, or any denomination for that matter. It was talking of a local assembly of believers, and therefore applicable to every local assembly of believers. The local church is the pillar and ground of the truth (the Bible--wherein the truth is). The local church has been founded on the Word of God. The Word of God is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It is the very foundation of the church. It is the pillar of the local church. Like a pillar holding up the structure of the building the truth of God's Word holds together in unity the believers assembled in the local church. From there they are sent with the gospel to others. They were saved by the gospel message and take the same gospel message to others. They have as a foundation the Word and take the Word to others. They are the pillar and ground of the truth. If you are not in that kind of Church you had better get out; I did not say that kind of organization, but that kind of church, that is that kind of assembly.

Your next verse. Jesus said what would be bound on earth would be bound in Heaven. Find the context of the verse. Look it up. It is speaking again of the local church, and it is speaking of church discipline, excommunication to be specific. The decisions that a local church makes concerning an erring brother, are firm, as if they were made in Heaven. Take the Scriptures seriouosly. "Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God."

"You may wish to make the Bible an idol; I'll take the word's of Jesus over yours any time."

It is apparent that you don't even know what the words of Jesus are; let alone what they mean. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim.2:15)

Isa.8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Do you have light?
DHK

 

Not following you here, Adam.

Could you explain?

Ron

 

DHK, this is a perfect example of how it is necessary for you to change and substitute words in Scripture to make it fit your man made preconceived ideas.

Now we are told that "church" really means the Bible.

Just like "water" means Scripture, according to you.

Sola scriptura at it's best. "The author used this word, but it really means that word."

Whatever it takes to hold onto your man made beliefs, DHK.

 

DHK, when Jesus said, "... I will build my church.", exactly which singular local called out body of believers was He referring to?

Notice, Jesus said "church", not "churches".

You have three choices then:

1 Your little local church that you belong to is that singular church that Jesus was talking about.

2 Your little local church that you belong to is not that singular church that Jesus was talking about.

3 You are wrong in your undrstanding of the meaning of the word "church".

Which is it?

Ron

 

"But for the first thousand years of her history the Church was essentially one. Five historic Patriarchal centers--Jerusalem; Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople-- formed a cohesive whole and were in full communion with each other. There were occasional heretical or schismatic groups going their own way, to be sure; but the Church was unified until the 11th century. Then, in events culminating in A.D.1054, the Roman Patriarch pulled away from the other four, pursuing his long-developing claim of universal headship of the Church."

http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html

 

Adam, is this what Baptis's believe, that the "Church" is a "universal body of Christians"?

I thought that Baptists believe that "church" is only the "local church".

That's the problem with sola scriptura, it all gets to mean whatever you want it to mean for yourself.

Ron

 

You thought wrong. The church means the body of believers here on earth. I know of no Baptists that profess what you wrote here.

Also, did you know that "Logos", also translates to "sound" ?

I just found that out the other day. Fascinating, eh ?

 

You better check with DHK on that one. I think that he will disagree with you.

 

Well we may have to wait. he is a late log-onner.

But I don't think he's calling a building a church. He may disagree, but I doubt it.

The local New-Testament Church is where the Body of Christ should be when the doors are opened.