Authority

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Brother Adam, Mar 16, 2002.

  1. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    Since much of our posting depends on the authority of our word, lets all consider for a moment what authority we write with. How many years of school? What church you speak for? Where you get your authority on the Truth from? and so on.

    I'll start with the person I think expresses the most authority:

    Qualitifications:

    Past preaching experiences- Said to be where ever two or more are gathered in His name. He is booked through the end of this age.

    Currently holds authority over:
    Man
    The weather,
    The earth,
    all that is in the earth,
    all the birds of the sky,
    and the fish of the sea.
    Even the mountians tremble at his command.

    Every word He has ever spoken has been that of perfection.

    Sacrifices: He took the entire worlds sins on his shoulders. And was slaughtered in the most horrible way known to man. And was was on display to be mocked and spit at. He was buried in a cave.

    And he did it all for you.

    So despite your continued sins- their already paid for.

    So who has the most authority in your life...

    You?
    your parents?
    your pastor or priest?
    your boss?

    ...

    Your Savior?
     
  2. GraceSaves

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    I like to think I know everything there is to know about our Lord, but He constantly proves otherwise! ;) Faith is such an exponential thing; it grows constantly, and in ways in which you'd never expect. I realize that many people like to keep it simple, but I absolutely love the richness of faith found in the Catholic Church. Although it is only the smallest fragment of what there is to know about our one, Triune God, there is a wealth of faith-enducing knowledge out there begging for us to read.

    Of course Christ is our authority. Every good thing comes from Christ. Of course, all things that come from Christ come through a medium, be that the written or oral Word of God, and his appointed teachers, whose job it is to protect the truth of the Word at all costs.

    I realize my belief is not commonly shared, but I want you to know that while the Pope is the highest teaching authority, as Catholic, I KNOW that what he teaches comes directly from the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. Juan Diego

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    Dear GraceSaves,
    Thank you. I also find the Catholic religion to be not only the most beautiful practice of worshipping our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but also the only religion that actually makes logical sense when you objectively reason it out.

    God bless you,
    Juan Diego
     
  4. Glen Seeker

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    Tonight, after Mass, I knelt before the Eucharist in silent adoration. Mere words cannot convey the feelings (of Joy? Awe? Wonder? Adoration? Peace? Love? Comfort? Humility?) which filled me.

    I just wish that all could experience all that I have as a Catholic.

    Aloha and God Bless
     
  5. Pauline

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    Some beautiful posts on here by the Catholics. Thanks to each of you.

    Adam,
    Do you not believe that Christ gives or shares His authority, His wisdom and knowledge, with any human on earth? Is there no one you go to for counsel, no one you trust to pass on to you a broader, deeper understanding of Christ's teachings?

    Pauline

    [ March 18, 2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Pauline ]
     
  6. DHK

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    Mat.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    In Mat.28:18, the word for power is "authority." It is Christ that has and is our authority. In Hebrews the Lord tells us that in times past, that is, in the Old Testament times He spoke through the prophets in various different ways, at different times. For example, he spoke to Samuel in an audible voice, to Joseph in dreams, to Zechariah in visions, to Moses directly (even as it were face to face). But now, in these last days, He speaks to us through His Son.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The Word, Jesus Christ, is revealed to us, through the written Word. God has chosen to reveal Himself through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ through His Word. Every thing that I need to know about God is contained in the pages of the Scriptures. I need no other authority. Using tradition as authority is man made, and condemned by Christ. He Himself said: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39).
    DHK
     
  7. Gloria1

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    Very true and you should have added verse 40 where Jesus said "yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life."

    Reading sciptures only makes you "think" that you have eternal life which to many Catholics here is just not quite enough. The message here is that second hand words are not what salvation is all about (Jn.5:39-40).
     
  8. GraceSaves

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    First off, since Jesus is the Word, and since Jesus is how God reveals Himself to us now, then only the actual words from Jesus mouth would be trustworthy and "inspired." Instead, we have the epistles, letters to the Church after Christ's ascension, and a "revelation" to John, through a vision, after Jesus' ascension. They speak words that Jesus did not speak, and yet they are the inerrant "Word of God." If the "Word became flesh," and that's final, why do you trust words that are not from Jesus?

    Furthermore, show me the verse that says that all Word of God is "written." You won't find it, because it's not there. That's a modern invention.

    First off, Paul commands us to keep the traditions we were taught, both oral and by letter. There are many other verses where "tradition," the actual word is mentioned, and in positive light. The verses have been shown to you time and time again.

    Furthermore, was John the last book of the Bible written? When John's Gospel first reached the people, did they have the FULLNESS of Scripture to search? No. And if you believe all Scripture is inspired, it takes ALL of Scripture to fully understand. Since they didn't have all of Scripture, nor had any idea how much more Scripture would be available, how can you possibly come to the conclusion that they could look up the Scriptures for anything they needed? THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT ALL! But the teachings, taught and passed on from word of mouth, kept people in the faith.

    You have no proof or evidence supporting the idea that ALL WORD OF GOD is written.
     
  9. DHK

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  10. GraceSaves

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    When did I question Scripture? This verse says absolutely nothing regarding Scripture being the only Word of God. Yes, Scripture is all the things this verse says it is, but no where does it say it is the only thing.

    And yet the sole function of the reformation was to take away the interpretation of Scriptures from the Church and place it in the hands of the common people. Now we have 20,000+ churches, all with their own private interpretations of what Scriptures are trying to say, instead of the interpretation that the Church has held onto and fought for for nearly 2,000 years. You dont' make a good case for yourself, here. Furthermore, did Peter not also preach? Yes, Peter was there first hand, and yes, Peter wrote the inspired Word of God, but these verses provide no case against the belief that Peter also preached the inspired Word of God. Realize that the Catholic Church is Apostolic. Our teachings are tracable all the way back to the apostles and the followers of the apostles.

    John states, at the end of his Gospel, that Jesus did and said many other things, but it would take all the books of the world to get it all down. The mysteries of faith are summed up in Scripture; surely you do not believe that God, in all his majesty and wonder, can be summed up in a 1000 page book. Again, John said himself that not all could be recorded because that would take forever. Furthermore, Paul speaks of oral traditions being kept up.

    The Catholic Church has not added unto the New Testament Canon, so I don't know what you are attacking here. The Catholic doctrines that you disagree with have basis in the Gospels, the epistles, and Revelation. Obviously you disagree with these beliefs, but you'll convince no Catholic with a firm understanding of his/her faith that these beliefs are contained fully outside of Scripture, because we have Scriptures that point to these things.

    You're being presumptuous. No where does he speak of a faith that must be "written down" to be understood. How do things get passed on the most? By word of mouth. People coming and preaching the Gospel. When there was no Bible, people taught the Good News by word of mouth. The Bible wasn't complete when Jude wrote, and if the Bible is the final say-so, wouldn't it need to be complete for the faith to be complete? That is, unless they already had a complete faith passed on via word of mouth.

    Jesus' Word has been preserved. It has been preserved for nearly 2000 years by the oldest Christian Church in the world. No case.

    Then why didn't he just say "Scriptures?" Scriptures are mentioned specifically in the Bible in many places, so why wouldn't he have said "Scriptures" instead of "Word of God?"
     
  11. Brother Adam

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    Just some thoughts while reading this thread...

    ~~~~

    GraceSaves,

    Come to think of it, maybe you're right. Why would I ever want to be sola scriptura. What a crazy thought. I'm going to go by the Book of Mormon and the Great Pearl of Price this afternoon.

    ~~~~

    I actually find it quite ironic that Catholics say that the Bible isn't good enough and then defend their views with the Bible.

    ~~~~

    Of course all Jesus said and did is not written in the Bible. But does it come from your pope? I don't believe so. But that is okay, you continue to have faith in your doctrine. I'll hang on to my Bible.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  12. LaRae

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    Adam,

    you said:

    I actually find it quite ironic that Catholics say that the Bible isn't good enough and then defend their views with the Bible.

    ~~~~

    Of course all Jesus said and did is not written in the Bible. But does it come from your pope? I don't believe so. But that is okay, you continue to have faith in your doctrine. I'll hang on to my Bible.

    UNP
    Adam

    First of all Catholics do not think the Bible isn't good enough....make sure you know what you are talking about if you are trying to represent Catholic beliefs.

    Secondly The Pope doesn't set Doctrine. The Pope is only infalliable when he is speaking of Faith and Morals...and only then if there are certain criteria met.

    Make sure you understand Catholic teachings before you comment on them.

    Thanks,
    LaRae
     
  13. Lorelei

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    1. How do you know?

    2. Do you not have that same Spirit within you?

    3. Why must he be the only one the Holy Spirit speaks through?

    ~Lorelei
     
  14. Brother Adam

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    "Make sure you understand Catholic teachings before you comment on them."

    You touch on a very imporant subject: the infallibility of the pope. Only one man is infallible. And that is the man Jesus Christ. Scripture does not speak of the popes infallibility. But of course: scripture isn't good enough is it?

    In His Service,
    Adam
     
  15. LaRae

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    Adam,

    You said:

    You touch on a very imporant subject: the infallibility of the pope. Only one man is infallible. And that is the man Jesus Christ. Scripture does not speak of the popes infallibility. But of course: scripture isn't good enough is it?

    In His Service,
    Adam

    The Pope is only infalliable on matters of faith and morals when he is speaking ex cathedra and certain conditions must be met to determine that. He's not perfect or even sinless. The Pope does not add too or take away from Doctrine....it is only on matters of faith and morals. The Pope isn't changing Scripture.

    Your comments merely show how well you do NOT understand how the RCC works.

    Just in case you don't know Christ didn't leave us a book....he left us the Apostles. Catholics strongly believe in the Bible...who do you think preserved it for centuries? Why would the Church preserve the Bible if it didn't believe the teachings?

    LaRae
     
  16. Brother Adam

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    He left us the Apostles eh? Not what my Bible says:

    Matthew 10:20 (KJV)
    For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Mark 13:11 (KJV)
    But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

    Luke 11:13 (KJV)
    If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


    Luke 12:12 (KJV)
    For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

    John 3:5-6 (KJV)
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 14:16-17 (KJV)
    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John 14:26 (KJV)
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 (KJV)
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:7-14 (KJV)
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [9] Of sin, because they believe not on me; [10] Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; [11] Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. [12] I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    My Bible tells me that Jesus left us the Holy Spirit.

    But then again...the Bible isn't good enough is it? ;)

    UNP
    Adam
     
  17. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    "The Pope is only infalliable on matters of faith and morals when he is speaking ex cathedra and certain conditions must be met to determine that. He's not perfect or even sinless. The Pope does not add too or take away from Doctrine....it is only on matters of faith and morals. The Pope isn't changing Scripture.

    Your comments merely show how well you do NOT understand how the RCC works."

    Actually, I think you're trying to water down the influence your leader has on your church. I'm curious how you worded your paragraph: you seem to use "D"octrine and Scripture interchangably. Do you believe that Catholic doctrine is scripture? Or in other words the Catholic catachism is elevated to the Words of the Bible?

    Though I admit here you have caught my attention: If you leader has no influence on your doctrine: who decides what is correct and what is not? Individual persons given that authority by others in the church?

    UNP
    Adam
     
  18. Pauline

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    Adam,
    God, in the divine revelation, gave the Church what is true teaching. The pope and bishops can only pass on what is in that package of revelation.

    Yes, God gave the Church the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ promised to be with the Apostles until the end of time -- the Holy Spirit is how He is with them. See Mt 28,19-20 and Jn 17. It is through the word of the Apostles that people are to be brought to Jesus Christ. It is through the Holy Spirit working in and through them that men are to be ordained and consecrated as bishops and presbyters. It is the Apostles who are given to us as our foundation along with Jesus Christ -- because God chose to work through them.

    Linus was consecrated by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles. As was Cletus and Clement I. These were the first three to follow in the line of Peter. But other bishops were also consecrated by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles, in fact the entire "first generation" of bishops were thus consecrated. St. Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp were both ordained and consecrated as bishops by Apostles.

    Tradition was given to the Church by the Apostles. The Gospels were written by Apostles or by men who knew Apostles. The work, of course, is God's -- and He chose to work through the Apostles. And He continues to work through the apostolic line. Just as Jesus Christ promised in Mt 28, 19-20 that He would be with the Apostles in their teaching and use of the Sacraments until the end of time. They are all dead, so how can Christ continue to fulfill His promise? Only by being with their successors.

    Catholics always believe and teach that Scripture is inerrant. We also accept what Scripture really teaches: that Christ delegated His authority to Peter and the other Apostles in union with Peter.
    We believe Christ's words in Scripture that He will be with the Apostles until the end of time and that they are the foundation of the Church, along with Himself. Have you stopped to think how Catholics believe Christ's words in Scripture instead of explaining away what doesn't fit their doctrine?!

    We take literally and really live by Christ's words in John 6, Mt 16, Jn 17, etc.

    Pauline

    [ March 19, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Pauline ]
     
  19. HankD

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    &gt;&gt;Catholics strongly believe in the Bible...who do you think preserved it for centuries?&gt;&gt;

    God.

    Yes, through human beings, Byzantine, Italian, Alexandrian, etc...

    HankD
     
  20. DHK

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    Does this mean when the Pope declared that it was okay for all the Catholics to believe in evolution a couple of years ago, that evolution is simply a matter of faith and morals, and has nothing to do with doctrine or teaching? If the Pope doesn't change Scripture or its meaning, why would he declare a belief in evolution to be in harmony with the story of Creation as recorded in Genesis one? Something changed. It never was that way before. This has more to do with morals. This is doctrine.
    DHK
     

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