AV1611 Translator Sidenotes 3: S.Iohn

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ed Edwards, Mar 15, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Continuing a study of the translater footnotes
    of the King James Version (AKA: Authorized Version),
    1611 Edition (KJV1611AV).

    Study for the Gofpel according to S. Iohn.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn I:12 (KJV1611):

    "But as many as receiued him, to
    them gaue hee ||power to become the
    sonnes of God, euen to them that beleeue
    on his Name :


    ||Or, the right or privelege.

    S.Iohn I:12 (KJV1611alt1):

    "But as many as receiued him, to
    them gaue hee the right to become the
    sonnes of God, euen to them that beleeue
    on his Name :


    S.Iohn I:12 (KJV1611alt2):

    "But as many as receiued him, to
    them gaue hee the privelege to become the
    sonnes of God, euen to them that beleeue
    on his Name :


    Again, multiple transaltions help one determine
    the sense of the scripture. Here where
    "power" has become something you plug into, we
    really don't usually construe of "power"
    as meaning "right" or privelege, but here it
    would. Not the far cry in the KJV1611
    from the intentionally deceptive usual
    KJV1769 (or 1762/) which has no translator
    margin-note. The propogandist of KJVO
    appear to be trying to deceive and end up
    being like the great Roman Catholic Church
    of the middle ages: denying the scripture
    to the common person and assuring that only
    the ones who profit can be a prophet.

    John 1:12 (AMplified Bible):

    But to as many as did receive and
    welcome Him, He gave the authority
    (power, priviledge, right) to become the
    children of God, that is, to those who
    believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on)
    His name.


    NIV, NLT, NASB - "right"

    [​IMG]
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    We must remember, Ed, that the KJVOs say that the KJ translators chose the "correct" definitions by "providential guidance". However, they CANNOT prove that if God did such for the KJ men, that He did NOT do it for other translators. In other words we have yet another KJVO statement based upon pure guesswork.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn I:21 (KJV1611):

    and they asked him, What then?
    Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am
    not. Art thou ||that prophet? And hee
    answered, No.


    Sidenote: || Or, a Prophet.

    S.Iohn I:21 (KJV1611alt):

    and they asked him, What then?
    Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am
    not. Art thou a prophet? And hee
    answered, No.


    BTW, "that prophet" is mentioned
    again in v. 24 (there without the
    sidenote). So no "one-verse doctrine"
    is ruined here [​IMG]

    John 1:21 (GNT = The Good News Translation)

    "Who are you, then?" they asked.
    "Are you Elijah?" R2 "No, I am not,"
    John answered. ¶ "Are you
    the Prophet?" F2 they asked. ¶ "No," he replied.


    -----------------------------------------------
    FOOTNOTES:
    F2: the prophet: [The one who was expected to appear and announce the coming of the Messiah.]

    The new "southren baptist" bible follows
    the primary KJV reading:
    John 1:21 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    "What then?" they asked him. "Are you Elijah?"
    "I am not," he said.
    "Are you the Prophet?" "No," he answered.


    NASB follows the primary KJV reading,
    nowhere do i see any KJVO credit
    for so doing [​IMG]
    John 1:21 (NASB):

    1:21
    They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?"
    And he said, "I am not." "Are you
    the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

    NIV and NLT both follow the primary
    KJV reading.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn I:29 (KJV1611):

    The next day, Iohn seeth Iesus
    comming vnto him, and saith, Behold
    the Lambe of God, which ||taketh
    away the sinne of the world.


    Sidenote: || Or. beareth.

    S.Iohn I:29 (KJV1611alt):

    The next day, Iohn seeth Iesus
    comming vnto him, and saith, Behold
    the Lambe of God, which beareth
    away the sinne of the world.


    NIV, NLT, NASB all use "take".

    Of course, this is meaningless to the
    KJVO, for they are always wrong that
    is not one of the KJVs.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn III:3 (KJV1611):

    Iesus answered, and said vnto
    him, Verily, verily I say vnto thee, except
    a man be borne ||againe, he cannot
    see the kingdome of God.


    Sidenote: || Or, from above

    S.Iohn III:3 (KJV1611alt):

    Iesus answered, and said vnto
    him, Verily, verily I say vnto thee, except
    a man be borne from above
    , he cannot
    see the kingdome of God.[/b]

    Woah, wouldn't that change doctrine?
    Well maybe wording?
    Where would be "born again"?

    Guess what, the phrase appears elsewhere:

    Joh 3:3 (nKJV)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    Joh 3:7 (nKJV)
    Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

    1Pe 1:23 (nKJV)
    having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

    The NIV, NLT, and NASB all say
    "born again" and all footnote "born from above".

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn I:41 (KJV1611):

    He first findeth his owne brother
    Simon, and saith vnto him, We haue
    found the Messias, which is, being
    interpreted, ||the Christ.


    ||Or, the anointed.

    S.Iohn I:41 (KJV1611alt):

    He first findeth his owne brother
    Simon, and saith vnto him, We haue
    found the Messias, which is, being
    interpreted, the anointed.


    Interesting, the translators of the
    KJV give the translation in Greek (Christ)
    and in English (the anointed).

    The NIV and NLT both give "Christ" without footnote.
    The NASB gives "Christ" in the text but
    in the footnote: "Gr Anointed One".

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    What about in modern revisions of the KJV, Ed? Do "they" give both "christ" and "anointed one" like the 1611 edition?
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    The unknown KJV (may be KJV1769): no footnotes.
    KJV1873 - Christ in the body, "the Anointed" in the footnote.
    (note that the KJV1873 is different from the KJV1611
    for in the KJV1873 "Anointed" is capital whereas
    in the KJV1611 "anointed" starts with a small letter)
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn I:42 (KJV1611):

    And he brought him to Iesus.
    And when Iesus beheld him, he said,
    Thou are Simon, the sonne of Iona,
    thou shalt be called Cephas, which is
    by interperation, ||a stone.


    Sidenote: || Or, Peter.

    S.Iohn I:42 (KJV1611alt):

    And he brought him to Iesus.
    And when Iesus beheld him, he said,
    Thou are Simon, the sonne of Iona,
    thou shalt be called Cephas, which is
    by interperation, Peter.


    Well, seems the translators of the KJV
    know more about translation than most
    KJV-onlists. The primary reading is
    in English, the Secondary reading is
    in Greek. But we call the man "Peter"
    not "A Stone".

    NIV has "Peter" in the text and in the
    footnote: "Both Cephas (Aramiac) and
    Peter (Greek) mean rock./

    NLT has "Peter" in the text and in
    the footnote: "The names Cephas
    and Peter both mean "rock" "

    NASB has "Peter" in the text and
    in the footnote: "Rock or Stone"

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    WHAT? "anointed"? What an ATTACK on the deity of Christ. Sad. How could one compromise and use such a verion?
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    I call it my "prayer bible"
    When i go into my closet to pray,
    that is were i read it ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn III:20 (KJV1611):

    For euery one that doeth euill, hateth
    the light, neither commeth to the
    light, lest his deeds should be ||reproued.


    Sidenote: || Or, discouered.

    S.Iohn III:20 (KJV1611alt):

    For euery one that doeth euill, hateth
    the light, neither commeth to the
    light, lest his deeds should be discouered.


    I have no idea what "reproued" meant in
    1611. But i know "discovered" in 2004
    means "found out"

    The alternate is similiar to:
    Numbers 32:23 (KJV1769):
    But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against
    the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.

    My major Bible reads here as the alternate
    only using the term "exposed".

    John 3:20 (HCSB)
    For everyone who practices wicked things
    hates the light and avoids it, so that
    his deeds may not be exposed.

    NIT - exposed, the secondary in the KJV
    NLT - punished, the primary in the KJV
    NASB - exposed, the secondary in the KJV

    So the NIT and NASB are damned here for
    taking the secondary KJV reading and starting
    new doctrines. The NLT can wait until latter
    to be condemned :(

    [​IMG]
     
  14. TC

    TC
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    10
    HCSB - Just bought one today and I like it so far.
     
  15. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    WHAT? "anointed"? What an ATTACK on the deity of Christ. Sad. How could one compromise and use such a verion? </font>[/QUOTE]My KJB and the 1611 agree with each other, "Christ." Again I ask, why are you quoting sidenotes? Isn't God's word enough?
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    The term "Christ" is a stumbling block to
    millions of Jews both alive today and who
    died in the past. The banner "CHrist" has
    been misued by evil people who have killed
    millions of Jews.

    Jesus is the Christ.
    The term "Christ" offends Jews.
    "Christ" is Greek for "the anointed".

    "Messiah" is Hebrew for "the anointed".
    The term "Messiah" does NOT offend Jews.
    Jesus is the Messiah.
    (In fact, while you are using Hebrew terms,
    might as well use "Yeshua" which is in
    Hebrew as "Jesus" in English (Or "Iesus" is
    for you KJV fans).)

    Genesis 12:3 (KJV1769):

    And I will bless them that bless thee,
    and curse him that curseth thee:


    To use the term "Christ" to a Jew is to
    curse Abraham and risk being cursed
    yourself.

    Interesting that some are so hot to defend a
    Greek term "Christ" that offend Jews
    when there is a perfectly Good English Term:
    "Anointed One". Thank you, reminds me of another
    double standard ;)
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    I cannot answer your question,
    but it is your problem.
    What is "God's word"?

    There are the only two choices:

    1. the written word of God: the Holy Bible
    2. the living word of God: Messiah Yeshua

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn III:27 (KJV1611):

    Iohn answered, and said, A man
    can ||receiue nothing, except it be giuen
    him from heauen.


    Sidenote: || OR, take vnto himselfe.

    S.Iohn III:27 (KJV1611alt):

    Iohn answered, and said, A man
    can take vnto himselfe nothing, except it be giuen
    him from heauen.


    John 3:27 (KJV1769maybe):

    John answered and said, A man can receive
    nothing, except it be given him from
    heaven.

    Notice the changes from the PERFECT KJV1611
    to the PERFECTER KJV1769:
    - comma after answered
    - J, I now do the work I did alone then
    - V, U have exchanged roles
    - many silent "e"s gone

    Notice how much more vital the alternate is than
    the later selection: the later KJV1769 implies
    that only if a man is given something does it
    come from heaven. The earler 1611 alternative
    is STRONG: even should a man take by force
    something, it is still coming from heaven.

    The NIV takes the weak: "only what is given him".
    The NLT is strong: "God in heaven appoints
    each person's work".

    The NASB is weak: "can receive nothing".

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unlike modern books, with the translator margin notes at the
    bottom (footnotes), the KJV1611 Edition had margin notes
    at the side (sidenotes). Some margin notes denote
    similar verses in the Bible (these will not be covered
    in this series of topics). Some margin notes start
    with "Or", these denote alternate translations, that is
    the single Hebrew or Greek term and have variant meanings
    (according to context and other rules of translating).
    This is the most common type (694 in the New Testament).
    Some margin notes start with "Gr." These margin notes
    show a variation because of variant Greek sources
    (in the New Testament, some 37 cases). These Greeks sources
    are collectively known as the TR = Textus Receptus.

    Today we have a simple variant translation:

    S.Iohn IIII:46 (KJV1611):

    So Iesus came againe int Canna
    of Galiee, where hee made the water
    wine. ANd there was a certaine
    ||noble man, whose sonne was sicke at
    Capernaum.


    ||Or, Courtier, or ruler.

    S.Iohn IIII:46 (KJV1611alt1):

    So Iesus came againe int Canna
    of Galiee, where hee made the water
    wine. And there was a certaine
    Courtier, whose sonne was sicke at
    Capernaum.


    S.Iohn IIII:46 (KJV1611alt2):

    So Iesus came againe int Canna
    of Galiee, where hee made the water
    wine. And there was a certaine
    ruler, whose sonne was sicke at
    Capernaum.


    The terms suggest several variants
    for what are now collectively
    called middle level managers (of Government).

    How do the others handle it?

    KJV1873 - one word (the 1611 was two words):
    "nobleman" with the same footnote

    NIV - "royal official", no footnote

    NLT - Instead of "certain noble man" has
    "government official", no footnote

    NASB - Instead of "certain noble man" has
    "royal official", no footnote

    As in all cases with the Holy Bible in multiple
    versions: the words are different, the meanings
    are the same. Here an unnamed government (then royal)
    person comes to Jesus with a son, sick to death.

    The important thing here is to see Jesus,
    not try to figure out the name and specific
    job series of the man to appealed to Jesus.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    S.Iohn V:2 (KJV1611):

    Now there is at Hierusalem
    by the sheepe ||market, a poole,
    which is called in the Hebrew tongue
    Bethesda, having five porches.


    ||Or, gate.

    S.Iohn V:2 (KJV1611alt):

    Now there is at Hierusalem
    by the sheepe gate, a poole,
    which is called in the Hebrew tongue
    Bethesda, having five porches.


    John 5:2 (KJV1769):

    Now there is at Jerusalem
    by the sheep market a pool,
    which is called in the Hebrew tongue
    Bethesda, having five porches.

    John 5:3 (HCSB):

    By the Sheep Gate in Jerusalem
    there is a pool,
    called Bethesda in Hebrew,
    which has five colonnades.

    John 5:3 (NLT):

    Inside the city,
    near the Sheep Gate,
    was the pool of Bethesda,
    with five covered porches.

    John 5:3 (NASB):

    Now there is in Jerusalem
    by the sheep gate a pool,
    which is called in Hebrew Bethesda,
    having five porticoes.

    Yep, all those evil MVs ;) have "gate",
    the REAL KJVs second choice. But then,
    most KJVOs don't read the Real KJV1611
    but the MV-KJV1769 :(
     

Share This Page

Loading...