Azusa Street: Charles Fox Parham and William J. Seymoure

DHK, just for the record and then I'm finished responding to you, the "red mad graemlin" was meant to show you that I meant that you were the one that was angry. I'm not angry, in any way, shape, or form. As a matter of fact, I think that I've done good and sit back and took a lot from most and not said a word. Wouldn't you agree?

What you post or write is only your opinion, what you find in some books, or on the web.

As I said before, "I don't have the gift of tongues" and I don't have what some call, "a second blessing." It is called the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It is required! If you have not the Spirit you are none of His.

Now I will go back to "lurking" and sorting out the flaws in your posts.

MEE

 

Abiyay,
I think that this is a great thread.
However everytime a subject that involves Pentecostal/charismatic issues seems to emotionally heat up cessationist and rabbit trails get started.

 

DHK:

Backatcha !

You're a hardcore anti-gifts; anti evidence proponent for
some reason.
Yours truly was very much in doubt of the authenticity of the
"baptism of the H.S." experience until it happened to me.

When deep spiritual matters concern a believer, who should we
go to for an answer....? God......I say. There is a multitude of
those in opposition to the tongues issue when in reality, YOU
should be sorting it out for yourself through prayer. That's what
I did as you know from the "Tongues" thread.

It is too large and important of an issue to table it on the basis
of your denominational expectations. Mee has experienced the
same thing as I did and there are thousands that fall into this
same catagory. Doesn't it make you wonder why those who
experience this become a larger voice....a more outspoken witness
for the Lord..? Could this be the result of a demonic force that
caused us to be overcome with a prayer language..?

Why was the incident of "Have you received the Holy Ghost since
you believed?" (Acts 19:2) a thing that was expected to empower those
involved with a boldness to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ ..?

John the Baptist as much as said that this new form of baptism would
be superior to water baptism. (Luke 3:16).

If the force behind those of us who take all means to witness is satan,
then satan is dividing his own kingdom. Those who are adept to
resisting a power and a work of the spirit are those who are content
to stay within the bounds of their denominational comfort zonesand not
expand their minds, goals and ministries to a lost world.

BEWARE !!!

*When applied with prayer and supplication, tongues as of
fire may fall upon thee !!

 

I have all the evidence I need in the Bible, which you don't seem to accept. As I have said before, I will say again: I believe what I believe because the Bible teaches it to be so, not because of experience. You believe what you believe to be so, because of your experiences, not because of what the Bible says. You base your theology on your experience, not on the Bible, which is a sad state to be in. You and MEE are unable to Scripturally demonstrate the validity of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as defined by Pentecostal and Charismatic groups, neither have you demonstrated through Scriptures that tongues is for today. You fail on both counts. The only thing you come back with is a standard Charismatic answer: "you can't deny my experience; how can you say there are no tongues when you have never experienced them." (or something to that effect).
Prove through Scripture your beliefs.

BTW, MEE, it is a false accusation to accuse someone of being angry when you don't have the slightest idea of what their state of emotions are. If I state my convictions firmly, maybe it is the truth that is hurting you. I am not mad at all. But I do resent being called angry on a public board when I am not. To state what I believe in, and state it in no uncertain terms, so that you clearly understand what I mean, does not mean that I am angry. Look again at your own post. It is you that appears angry and indignant that I should say such things. I only say the truth: that which I can demonstrate from Scripture.
DHK

 

First of all I am not part of a denomination. I don't have denominational expectations. I study the Bible on my own, and come to my own conclusions.
Secondly, the very fact that this is being accepted by the larger majority is evidence that it is wrong. Since when is the majority always right. Since the majority of Germans killed the minority of Jews in the holocaust? Since the majority of Americans (at one time) believed in the acceptance of slavery? Is the majority always right? Do the majority of Chinese accept that Communism is a better system than democracy?

In fact, the Charismatic movement, defined by speaking in tongues is a movement that transcends almonst all religions: Mormons, Hindus, Voo-dooism, all mainline religions (saved and unsaved alike, Catholics, many of the cults, that it will one day be used of the anti-christ and false prophet to bring in the one world church of the end times. It is a tool being used of the devil to unite all religions together to form a one-world church. Yes, you are right, it transcends many denominations. It encompasses thousands of people. It forms a very large voice. But what is that voice speaking for? God or the devil? When I hear Mormons and Hindus speaking in tongues I know what the answer is. When I hear of people praising Satan when speaking in tongues I know what the answer is. How do you account for these things? If tongues were really of God, then none of these things would be happening on a regular basis. But they do happen on a regular basis. And you call it evidence of being baptized of the Holy Spirit. Are Mormons and Hindus baptized with the Holy Spirit? You serve a different God than I. My God is the Jesus Christ of the Bible--not defined by Mormons and Hindus.
DHK

 

This thread statred out as a different subject matter than tongues.I wouls like to see it get back to the subject of Charles Parham.
There have been accusations for years about Parham being a racist.
I have a book entitled "2000 years of Charismatic christianity" by Eddie Hyatt who is a great historian.
On page 159 of this book he mentions that Parham ministered in Baxter Springs Kansas often in a local black Holiness church.( his source is witfrom a persoal interview with Pauline Parham in 1995)
He even found a means to skirt around the Jim Crow laws in Texas where segregation was strong.
I am sure that there are other historians that would say the same thing.
Most of the books that I have read do not address the issue of racism as it relates to Pahham and it could mean that it was not an issue with Parham

 

DHK: The language you are talking about called the Adamic Language is not tongues. Never has been tongues and never will be tongues. It is a language they believe everyone spoke in before the tower of Babel. Yes, we know it is false because there is no way they would know what it was because God confused the issue.

You and no other cessasionist has ever proved the Bible is the perfect Paul spoke of. You keep saying you have the Bible and that is all you need but you cannot produce scripture for what you say.

Sorry but believers are not filled with the spirit when they accept Jesus. The book of Acts prove this but you choose to not accept this. Even though it is there in black and WHite. They have the spirit to come upon them but not in them.

When Philip preached in Samaria it states that people believed on Jesus because of the miracles that were done, etc and were baptized in the name of Jesus. The Bible called them Christians. It tells us the Apostles came to Samaria so they could lay hands on them and so the Samaritans could be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Tongues was not for the Day of Pentecost only. This has been proven to you over and over again. Yet, you choose to ignore what happened to Cornelius and his family and the disciples of John the Baptist. It is obvious that when Paul was filled with the Holy Ghost he spoke in tongues because he wrote two whole chapters dealing with this issue.

You have said on other threads that there is no prayer language yet Paul said he prayed in tongues. Yet, again you ignore what he said. He said plainly that this was to edify the individual believer but you choose to ignore this. Paul said we would be talking to God when we prayed in tongues and it is mysterious and he also said that he wish all spoke in tongues but again you choose to ignore this.

Please don't make comments that people who speak in tongues go by experiences only for that is not true. We go by the scriptures more than you do.
We refuse to take one scripture out of context as you do and twist it to fit your cessasionist view. We are not going to take something in the Bible and add to it like you do.

You have been given the challenge over and over and over again to prove by scripture the perfect Paul was speaking of is the Bible but you cannot. Why because there is no truth in what you say.

 

Atestring, MEE,

Both of you sound like the Catholic brothers!!

YOUR church is the church that started in the first century!

YOUR church is the one who has carred the torch for 2000 years!!

Has it ever occurred to you that the Charisms in the body today are ALSO in the CC?

Did you know that they too claim that the gifts never ceased, not even for a day?

They quote Tertullian too. Teresa. Mary so and so, and the list goes on.

If this is true, that the charisms in the body have been brought down from as far back as the day of Pentecost, then this is just ONE MORE thing that the CC has perverted.

God Bless

 

Clarification: I "ain't" a *HE* I'm a *SHE.*


MEE

 

Sorry MEE,

I wasn't sayin' you wuz a 'he', I was just referrin' to thu Catholics we have on this here puter meetin', and they are all 'he's'.

God Bless

 

Hrhema:

If you have read my posts, over and over again I have given evidence through the Scripture that Paul was speaking of the perfect Word of God. If you choose to ignore what God says on the matter I cannot help you. But do not make false accusations. I have been posting on this subject for the past two years, and have written enough on it in those months to publish a small book. Most of what I have written is an exposition of Scripture. For your sake I will give it again. Please pay attention this time.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, to ignore this is to ignore history. Brigham Young equated his teaching of the Adamic Language to speaking in tongues. You would like to disassociate yourself with the Mormons because of the stigma attached with them. But nevertheless it is a fact of history, just as much as slavery in America was a fact of history. You cannot deny your own history. Brigham Young claimed he was speaking in tongues, and it was no different than the tongues of the Charismatic movement of today. Don’t blame it on God. This is of Satan. Satan is confusing the issue, and he is confusing you.

This is false and you know it. I stated it as much in my opening statement to you. Your attitude is like the atheists. “If I were to demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt that Christ actually rose from the dead, would you accept my proof.” The atheist answers, “No.” He does not believe in spite of evidence. You are the same way. In spite of evidence: Biblical or otherwise, your mind is made up. Look at your words: you cannot produce scripture. You have already made up your mind not to believe.
Nevertheless here is Scripture:

1Cor.12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--The entire three chapters (12-14) speak of spiritual gifts. This is the overall context of these chapters. In chapter 12 there are two lists of spiritual gifts given: the first list is in verses 4-11, and the second list is given in verses 28-30. Notice in verse 30 that all the gifts are listed in order of importance. Firstly apostles, Secondarily prophets, thirdly, and after that…etc. The last gift to be listed, that is, the least important of all, is tongues. Paul then says to desire the more important gifts. Not the least important (tongues), but the most important, such as teaching. Charismatics of today have things backwards don’t they?
He then says that he will show you a better way. A better way then what? A better way then all the spiritual gifts put together—and that is the way of love. Paul then spends the better part of the thirteenth chapter of 1Corinthians 13 on the subject of love. Verses 1 to 7 in particular are devoted to this subject. In verse 8, the subject of his topic changes somewhat from love to revelation, yet all in the context of spiritual gifts. Now Paul is going to be discussing “revelation” from 1Cor.13:8, all the way to the last verse of chapter 14. This is the topic of the remaining three chapters: “revelation.” Let’s consider it in more detail: But remember the context is still “revelation.”

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Prophecies, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge will all cease at some time. These are gifts that specifically deal with revelation. Prophecy, as explained in verses 9 and 10, and also in chapter 14 was a gift that was used to edify the church, to teach doctrine. It was not always used in the sense of foretelling the future, but more in the sense of forthtelling or preaching the Word. However, God did prophecies as well, up until the time the Word of God was complete. Tongues (with interpretation only) was given to edify the church. It was also a prophetic gift just like the gift of prophecy, but used when people of another language were present, and used for a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22). Knowledge (not common knowledge which can never cease, but revelatory knowledge), special revelation from God, was also a prophetic gift of God, given because the New Testament had not yet been completed. All these gifts worked in conjunction with each other to supplement the Old Testament and give the New Testament revelation that the early believers needed, because they did not have the completed Word of God. The knew in part (that is, they had part of the Bible—the Old Testament, and they prophesied in part—to make up for the part that they did not have—the New Testament. That is why these gifts were given. They were temporary gifts, given “until that which was perfect was come.”

The word, “that” is a neuter pronoun, and therefore, cannot refer to a masculine object, such as Jesus Christ. “That” must refer to the Word of God. Keep in memory the context. The context is revelation. It is not the coming of Christ. It is not the eternal state. It is not the Kingdom of Christ. It is revelation. When that which is perfect is come (the perfect revelation of God—the completed Bible), then that which is in part (the incomplete, the temporary gifts of revelation) will be done away. They will cease, vanish, be done away with. They will no longer be needed, because everything that we will need will be revealed for us in the perfect (completed) Word of God. This is the only interpretation that makes any sense, given the context of this passage and the following verses also in chapter 14—revelation. Chapter 14 contrasts the gift of tongues with the gift of prophecy—both gifts of revelation. One gift was improperly being used and therefore did not edify the church. The other gift edified the church. Paul’s emphasis was to seek to edify the church. Tongues did not edify the church. The entire chapter is a rebuke against the use of tongues. The Charismatics have twisted the meanings of these verses, taken them out of their context, and tried to use them to their advantage. When confronted with this hermeneutical mockery, they lose and are forced to back away every time.
I’ll deal with the rest of your post next time. This one is getting long enough.
DHK

 

hrhema,

Every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. Not to believe so is heresy. But not every believer is filled with the Holy Spirit, although some are. As far as baptism is concerned: at salvation one is baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. This does not result in any emotional experience such as speaking in tongues or any such second blessing.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
--Here Saul is filled with the Holy Spirit, but there is no mention of tongues.

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
--They were filled with the Holy Spirit, well after any salvation experience. It was the result of prayer. The obvious outcome of being filled with the Holy Spirit was speaking the Word with boldness, witnessing. It is not speaking in tongues.

Eph.5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
--The believer is commanded to be filled with the Spirit continuously. This comes by submission to His Word, by obedience to Him. It has nothing to do with a so-called baptism of the Holy Spirit, and nothing whatsoever to do with speaking in tongues.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--This has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but rather the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which takes place at the time of salvation. Do you have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit? If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. This is not speaking of tongues; it simply speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And so? They believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved, just like everyone else in the Bible. This took place in Acts 8. The Bible does not refer to anyone as a “Christian” until Acts 11:26.


Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
--There was an extraordinary power that was manifested here on account of the Jews that were present, and because this was the first time that the Gospel went out to the Gentiles. Something happened that made Simon the sorcerer want to purchase the power that they had. However there is no mention of tongues. It was simply the power of God, that was being witnessed. Notice that there were Jews present. These were outward signs to convince the Jews that the message of the gospel was indeed a message from God.

No, it wasn’t. Tongues was for first century Christians only. I don’t ignore what happened to others. You choose to ignore that out of 28 chapters in the Book of Acts tongues is mentioned only three times: in chapters 2, 10, and 19. In all cases there were Jews present. Paul says that tongues are a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22). Do you have unbelieving Jews present in your churches where tongues are spoken? Paul referred to tongues in two chapters of the New Testament, and only two chapters of all thirteen epistles that he wrote. And then it was to rebuke the Corinthians in their use of tongues. He never encouraged it. He said that it was the least important of all the gifts. He told them to seek to prophecy instead of seeking after tongues. He set all kinds of restrictions on the use of tongues, almost none of which Charismatics keep today. If there is anyone who ignores Scripture at this point it is yourself and other Charismatics. It seems as if you have ripped the fourteenth chapter out of your Bibles. Either that or you just refuse to believe what the Holy Spirit is saying here, thus quenching what the Holy Spirit is saying.

14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
--Don’t seek tongues. According to 1Cor.12:30 it was the least of all the spiritual gifts; don’t seek after it. Rather follow after love, and if anything choose that you may prophesy. That is far better than tongues. Keep in mind that this chapter is a contrast between the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--The gift of tongues was given to the local church, to edify the local church. If it doesn’t edify the local church it is a useless, selfish gift, and no man understands him. Tongues used in this manner just caused chaos. No one could understand the tongue-user. He was a cause of confusion in the church. This is not an encouragement for one to speak to God; it is a rebuke. God doesn’t need to know what you speak in tongues. That is a laugh. Tongues had a purpose: to speak in another language when others were present that didn’t know what was being said. No matter what language is spoken I think God can understand your language, so there is no need to speak in another language to Him. You are allowed to use your mother tongue when speaking to God. I am sure He will understand. The gift of tongues always, always had a definite purpose in the first century. Today they do not. Speaking in mysteries, speaking when no man can understand you: Paul says that is wrong.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
--Therefore prophesy. It is prophecy that edified, not tongues.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
--The gift of tongues was a gift given to the local church. It was never meant to be a selfish gift used only for one’s selfish purposes. Again Paul is rebuking those who think that they can use this gift just for themselves. If you speak in tongues you just edify yourself?? That is wrong he is saying. Tongues was to edify the church. BUT he says, Prophesying edifies the whole church, therefore prophesy, not speak in tongues. It is not meant to be a selfish gift. We have so many selfish people in the church today.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
--The key words in the first part of this sentence is “but rather.” It was okay for them to have this gift. It wasn’t wrong. But I would rather that you prophesy. Prophesy is better. Greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues except he interprets. Why? That the church may receive edifying. There is the key. Both gifts were for the edification of the church. No gift was given for self-edification. If tongues was to be used it had to be used in conjunction with an interpreter. Tongues without an interpreter only caused confusion and chaos. It was not Biblical, not even in New Testament times.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
In the first part of this verse Paul says what profit is there in tongues? There is none. It was a rhetorical question with an obvious “no” for an answer. But if he came with a profitable gift: revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or by doctrine—then there would be profit and edification in the church. Tongues, in and of themselves, could not be beneficial.

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
--In an orchestra every instrument must be in tune, every instrument must give a sure and certain sound. If not the music will not be music but cacophony and confusion. So it is with tongues without interpretation. There is no certain sound. It results in confusion and chaos. Nothing is in tune.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
--The trumpet was an instrument that called the nation to war. It had different sounds or tunes. But one particular call was a call to war. If that sound was confused with other sounds of the trumpet what condition would the nation be in? What condition is the church in if it is always in a state of confusion because of speaking in tongues which only causes an uncertain sound and confusion?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
--Speaking in tongues is like speaking in the air—meaningless! Paul emphasizes to the Corinthians that they must speak in a language words that are easily understood.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
--The many kinds of voices in the world are many kinds of languages. There are many, many languages in this world and all of them are significant. Biblical tongues were actual languages, not some sort of gibberish as is spoken today in Charismatic circles.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
--But Paul says, If I don’t know the meaning of the voice or language, I am like a barbarian—an uncivilized person who cannot communicate properly. The person that speaks in tongues is just like that—an uncivilized barbarian. He doesn’t know how to communicate properly. He can’t speak in a civilized manner. He isn’t edifying those around him. He only causes confusion.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
--Even so be zealous of the more spiritual gifts as described in 1Cor.12:30, which automatically excludes tongues which is at the very bottom of the list, it being one of the gifts that is not very spiritual. Seek that you may edify the church. One thing that speaking in tongues without an interpreter does not do, is edify the church. It doesn’t edify anyone but himself, and that is totally unscriptural.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
--If the first century Christians found themselves in a situation where they were without an interpreter, they were to pray for the gift of interpretation also. No matter what the situation, they could not speak in tongues without an interpreter.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--If there is no interpretation tongues is useless. This verse must be interpreted in the context of the preceding verse. You must have an interpreter. Without one your gift is useless and unfruitful. Remember, God already knows what you are saying. Your spirit is praying but that doesn’t benefit the church. The gift of tongues was a gift to edify the church.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
--Here Paul speaks of praying and singing, but not necessarily speaking in tongues. What he does he does in the spirit, or in the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Whether it would be singing or praying, Paul was always led by the Spirit. Tongues is not mentioned in this verse.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
--Likewise here. Paul is referring to blessing, perhaps the blessing of food, as he refers to the saying of “Amen” at the giving of thanks. The situation is if one is speaking in tongues at that time, and one is unsaved and does not know what is going on, he wouldn’t even know when to say Amen, at the end of the prayer of giving thanks. This is just an illustration of how tongues brings confusion in the most simplest things. The emphasis again is he understands not what you say.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
--You thank God all you want; pray the long flowery prayers that you desire; but if it is all in an unknown tongue that no one can understand what does it profit? It is simply a useless exercise.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
--Paul had the need to speak in tongues more than them because of his extensive missionary journeys into lands that spoke other languages, and also because of the many unbelieving Jews dispersed throughout the land. He makes this statement as a rebuke to the Corinthians, for they abused the gift of tongues. That is why he says that he thanked God that he spoke in tongues more than them all. They abused the gift.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
--How much greater of a rebuke could one have then is written in this verse. Paul says I would rather speak five words that you can understand than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue. He would rather say something like: “Hi, my name is Paul.” (just 5 understandable words), than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue. Tongues doesn’t edify It is a useless gift without proper interpretation.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
--Be not children in understanding. Children do not understand very much. They understand little. In fact infants don’t understand anything at all. Likewise they that speak in tongues. Their audience will understand nothing, just like little children or infants.
“But in understanding be men” That is, seek after prophesy, a more mature gift that you may be able to give more mature understanding to the church.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
--This is a quote from Isaiah 28:11,12. Paul is quoting from the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, who says concerning Israel, “with men of other tongues and lips will I speak unto this people (Israel).” The prophecy was directed to Israel. The sign of tongues was for the nation of Israel.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--Therefore tongues are for a sign. A sign for who? They are a sign for unbelievers, not for believers. However, in verse 21 it says that they were a sign for the nation of Israel. These two verses taken together demonstrate that tongues was for a sign for the unbelieving Jew. In the Book of Acts Jews were always present every time people spoke in tongues. It clearly says here that tongues is for the unbeliever, not for the believer. It is for the unbelieving Jew. If you don’t have unbelieving Jews present when speaking in tongues, then speaking in tongues is frivolous and not needed. The gift has passed.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
--Doesn’t this describe the typical Charismatic church? All are gathered in one place. At least that part is right. And all speak in tongues—as they should NOT. And so, as the story goes, an unsaved person enters the church and sees this chaotic situation, and what does he think? What goes through his mind? Paul tells us. “Will they not say that ye are mad?” That is exactly what many Charismatic churches are like. Many people speaking in tongues all at the same time. Paul says it is wrong; it is chaos; people will think that you are mad, crazy and out of line. And Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is correct.

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
--However if all prophesy, that is, if all have the ability to teach, and edify, that one will be convinced of all that the message is true.

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
--What will cause him to humble himself and worship God? It is the gift of prophecy, which edifies the church by expounding the Word of God.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
--Edification, again is the key word. Paul emphasized that all the gifts were for the edification of the local church, not for oneself, but for the church. There is no such thing as a selfish gift. No such thing as a prayer language in an unknown tongue. They had all these gifts. They were to use them for the edification of the church; not all together at once, but one by one, in order, not causing confusion.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
--At the very most 2 or 3 could speak in tongues, and even then they had to have an interpreter, and they had to speak in turn, one at a time.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--It’s as plain as day here. If you don’t have an interpreter, then shut up and sit down. Keep Quiet! Let the preacher preach. You may quietly speak (pray) to yourself and to God, but don’t make a disturbance by speaking in tongues without an interpreter. You’re just causing chaos and confusion.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
--Those that did have the gift of prophecy also had a limit of three (2 or 3). And one had to judge (literally, discern). There was one that had the gift to discern if the prophecy was inspired from God or not.

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
--If one has a revelation while in church, keep quiet. Don’t be talking in church. Hold your peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
--Prophesying results in learning. It results in an education. And it results in others being comforted. No such thing is ever said about tongues.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
--the spirit is subject There is no disorder. When the prophets speak they are always in control of their minds and of their spirits. They know what they are saying. The spirit is subject to the prophet. The prophet is in control. This is exact opposite to the tongue speaker. He is not in control.. He does not know what he is saying or speaking. His spirit (whatever the source may be) is controlling him. He is not controlling his spirit. This again is a rebuke to those that spoke in tongues. They were not in control of their spirits as were the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
--God is not the author of confusion, but tongues certainly create a lot of confusion.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
--This was a directive for the women not to speak in tongues, and not to speak out at all during the service of the church. How many women speak in tongues? It is not Biblical. Do you disagree? You’re argument is not with me, it is with God. He made the rules, not me.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
--It is a shame for a woman to speak (publicly) in church. Learn from your husbands at home. Don’t be talking in church. And most of all don’t be speaking in tongues.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
--The Corinthian Church was very carnal (1Cor.3:1-3). They had these spiritual gifts and they were proud of it. Paul gives them this sarcastic rebuke saying, do you think that you are the only ones that have received God’s Word.?? They had become puffed up and proud of themselves, much like the Charismatics of today draw a dichotomy between those who speak in tongues and those who do not: the haves and the have-nots. The holy ones and the not so holy. The spiritual and the unspiritual. If you don’t have tongues, then there is something wrong with you. This is a sarcastic rebuke from Paul. Do you think that you are the only spiritual ones? You are the most carnal church.

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
--Continuing with the same thought as above: if you are truly spiritual, then you will follow the commandments of the Lord. You will obey Scripture, and that includes this chapter as well. In fact Paul writes and affirms that these things that he has just written down for them are the very commandments of God. You better listen.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
--If you do not take heed to what Paul has written, then listen to what he writes here: “If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant still.” I suppose that would apply to all Charismatics, for they certainly don’t follow the admonitions given in this chapter.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
--Who was this verse written to? It was written to the Corinthians, the first century believers, the believers of Apostolic times. It is not written to us today. Tongues have ceased. We know this from 1Cor.13:8-13. We also know it from 1Cor.14:21,22, for tongues is for a sign for the unbelieving Jews. Forbid not to speak in tongues to the Christians of the first century.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Things are not done decently and in order in Charismatic churches. Tongues cause chaos and confusion. They are not for today. They have ceased. Every verse in this chapter testifies to this fact.
DHK

 

hrhema, atestring, Zinger, MEE, ONENESS, and....

I have been accused of not being able to support my position with Scripture. I have also claimed that those who support speaking in tongues base their theology on their expereince rather than the Bible. Now that I was challenged, I have presented you Scripture. I went through every single verse of 1Cor.14, and presented much more Scripture as well.

The result?? A deafening silence!! A sullen quietness!

Has the cat got your tongue?
Has the keyboard caught your fingers?
Has your experience swallowed your theology?

Seriously, have you no answers to these posts?
DHK

 

DHK,

Do you remember what you told me when all I did was post scripture?



It works huh?

God Bless

 

I have been accused of lots of things but I have never been accused of being a catholic.

[ March 14, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: atestring ]

 

DKH, \
I will not search the web for speaking in tongues But I search the Bible.

I know lots of people that speak in tongues and they do not repeat sylables as you have accused.

No Cat has not got my tongue. I travel and have not been close to a computer. Even when I get home I do not spend all my time on a comnputer. I have a family that is a higher priority.
By the way this thread is suppose to be about Charles Parham.