Babylon

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Baptist in Richmond, Sep 30, 2003.

  1. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond
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    Hello,

    I wanted to start a discussion concerning a point of view of particular interest to me.

    You are aware of "Babylon the Great" of Revelation 17 (Verse 5 in particular). I have seen several people maintain that this is a reference to the Roman Catholic church. I was curious as to the origin of this school of thought.

    It would seem to me that if this were talking about the Roman Catholic church, then John would have called her "Rome the Great" as he undoubtedly would have been familiar with both cities. As you are probably aware, Saddam Hussein apparently believes himself to be the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar, and has rebuilt the ancient city. What if John really was referring to Babylon? What if it really was Babylon that John saw?

    I am interested in your thoughts.
     
  2. word_digger

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    In the Book of revelation "Babylon" is called a "great city" four times. (See Revelation 14:8, 16:19, 18:10, and 18:21). In the book of Revelation the term "great city" without a reference to Babylon is used eight times (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:16, 18:18, 18:19, and 21:10)

    Revelation 11:8 seems to be the defining verse because it clearly defines the "great city" of Revelation as being Jerusalem:

    Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Notice the verse also says this a spiritual reference, not a geographic one.

    The implication is that Jerusalem will become a global dominating center of world commerce and politics (and religions) in the days of the antichrist. It will be an evil place with the same spiritual corruptness as the ancient Babylonian city-state of the Chaldians. Most likely it will be under Islamic or multinational control and domination at that time.

    What I find interesting is that a Temple will be rebuilt on the Temple Mount before those days unfold. This indicates that something must yet happen to remove the Dome of the Rock to make room for a new Temple. And, since that will cause great consternation and anger in the Islamic world when it happens, it makes me wonder how the Jews will be able to then build the Temple. Certainly Jerusalem is destined for a period of great political upheavel which will usher in the times spoken of by John's visions. And, that a Temple must exist in Jerusalem at the time of the antichrist, the Aposle Paul wrote:

    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    These things will come to pass.

    Now, in reference to Saddam's efforts to rebuild the literal Babylon...forget it! I was in Iraq two months ago. Saddam's dream never really materialized. The only building he did at Babylon was to build himself another palace (he built many). That bird is history. There is no way that any great city, as the one described in Revelation, will spring up in that desolate land, now or anytime in the near future.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Babylon is tied directly to Rome because of the reference of Peter.
    Peter was at Rome, following the martyrdom of Paul. He is with Mark and Silas now that Paul was dead.

    So in his letter to the other churches, he uses "Babylon" as a euphemism for Rome.
     
  4. word_digger

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    I disagree. In the first verse of Peter's first letter he plainly tells where he is:

    1 Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"

    Peter clearly says that he is in the regions of Asia Minor and this area is a lot closer to literal Babylon than Rome. Therefore, if Peter made reference to the church at "Babylon" it is a reference to literal Babylon.

    This fairy tail about it being a "euphemism for Rome" is the Roman Catholic church's way to justify Peter being their first Pope. Our Bible says that Peter's ministry was to the Jewish dispora, not the Gentiles. Further, nowhere in the Bible is there ANY reference to Peter ever being in Rome. The only sources for this fable are writings outside the cannon of Scripture.

    I don't buy that "euphemism" for a New York minute.
     
  5. HankD

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    It is "MYSTERY" Babylon…

    Revelation 17:5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    A "mystery" in the Scripture is something hitherto unrevealed or that which had not been fully revealed in ages past.

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Examples:

    Colossians 1: 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints… which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    In Matthew 13 Christ reveals for us the "mysteries" of the kingdom of heaven, how that the kingdom of heaven will be infiltrated/subverted with/by the children of the devil, etc...

    Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    It was typical in the Greek culture (Hellenistic) for a "mystery" to be shrouded with symbols or types. The "Revelation" is the "Apocalysis", a word used of the unveiling of a statue.

    The Book of Revelation "mystery" Babylon has been made clear (unveiled) only after the passage of time and to those in the age to whom the Revelation of “things which shall be” was given.

    Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Of all the entities of history who or what best fulfils this passage?

    Read Fox’s Book of Martyrs.

    HankD
     
  6. ScottEmerson

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    The Muslim world.
     
  7. Gunther

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    Alexander Hislop has done a masterful work called: The Two Babylons. In it, he goes to extreme detail to demonstrate the closeness between the Babylonian religion, and the religion of Rome (which hasn't changed except for the names of its idols).

    The religion of Babylon, Zaroastrianism (sp?), goes all the way back to the tower of babel.

    It is the same Mother-Son worship the the Egyptians had, the Assyrians had it, the Catholics practice it (many of them unknowingly, but it is still sin and idolatry).
     
  8. Baptist in Richmond

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    It is "MYSTERY" Babylon…

    Revelation 17:5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    A "mystery" in the Scripture is something hitherto unrevealed or that which had not been fully revealed in ages past.

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Examples:

    Colossians 1: 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints… which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    In Matthew 13 Christ reveals for us the "mysteries" of the kingdom of heaven, how that the kingdom of heaven will be infiltrated/subverted with/by the children of the devil, etc...

    Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    It was typical in the Greek culture (Hellenistic) for a "mystery" to be shrouded with symbols or types. The "Revelation" is the "Apocalysis", a word used of the unveiling of a statue.

    The Book of Revelation "mystery" Babylon has been made clear (unveiled) only after the passage of time and to those in the age to whom the Revelation of “things which shall be” was given.

    Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Of all the entities of history who or what best fulfils this passage?

    Read Fox’s Book of Martyrs.

    HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I still don't see how you have deduced that Babylon (or even "Mystery Babylon") is in fact Rome.
     
  9. Jailminister

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    I don't see that the Catholics are so much the "Mystery, Babylon", but it is the Great Whore.

    Read:
    The Great whore will be used by the Beast to form a system that will comingle the world with religion. When the world gets tired of her, then it will do away with her. The system is called "Babylon the Great".

    Note the attires below:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. HankD

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    Personally I distinguish between the Catholic laity, priests, nuns and the Church of Rome aristocratic hierarchy.

    If you don't see the Church of Rome in Revelation 17, so be it.

    HankD
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    Babylon is 1st century Jerusalem.
     
  12. Tim

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    Grasshoppper,

    That's too obvious--it's in historical context, it can't be right!

    Tim
     

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