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Back to basics: Trinity

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by TP, Dec 30, 2004.

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  1. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Historically baptist are trinitarian. I am assuming that this is still true. How do baptist understand the Trintiy. The reason for this question is I met a Baptist who would not agree with the Nicean or Apostles Creed. I thought all major Christian groups believed in the early creeds. Some may take the word 'catholic' out and replace it with 'universal'. Some may go with the orthodox and remove the filioque. But I thought everyone would agree with the creed(The trinitarian expression of God). How would you explain the Trinity to someone who did not understand? This should be a topic we agree on, but just have difference of wording perhaps.

    peace
     
    #1 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  2. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    The problem is the words, themselves. Some don't understand that "I don't accept creeds" is a credal statement.
     
    #2 billwald, Dec 30, 2004
  3. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    I would say that a majority of evangelicals do not believe the teaching of Nicaea anymore, and hence are not saved.
    Dean
     
    #3 dean198, Dec 30, 2004
  4. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    I was afraid nobody would respond to a Trinity discussion. If we are all trinitarian, what is there to discuss. Nothing like a good Mary post to get discussion going. But I was hoping we could have a friendly discussion about something we agree on.

    peace
     
    #4 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  5. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: I would say that a majority of evangelicals do not believe the teaching of Nicaea anymore.

    Response: Do you believe that this is true? Trinity does not come up very much on the other boards, so I don't have a feel. Our congregation recites the creed weekly, and I often preach on the trinity. It is what makes christianity unique: Who is God in himself? Father Son holy Spirit: One God, Three persons.

    How does God work in the world? In the Spirit, Through the Son, to the Father. All of faith must be trinitarian, even prayer Must be trinitarian. All the Actions of christ are trinitarian. How could someone NOT be Triitarian and still be Christian.

    peace
     
    #5 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    We know that God the father, and God the son are one.....

    "John 10:30 I and my Father are one."

    That's pretty basic. But the Holy Spirit is a very good debate point. My belief in the trinity is pretty solid. We have David's plea...

    "Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

    We have several of Christ's reference to an indwelling spirit......

    "Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

    We have Christ himself referring to all three.....

    "Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

    And 1John 4:24 equates the Holy Spirit with God himself....

    "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

    I don't have much time, but I don't want to appear apathetic, so there you are. The condensed version.

    I await your reebuttal.....
     
    #6 Bro. Curtis, Dec 30, 2004
  7. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Also, remember, according to tradition, the baby sprinkling (RCC baptism) is salvific. So according to tradition, a belief in the trinity is not neccessarily required for salvation.

    My belief is that folks who study the bible, after becoming saved will understand the trinity. The thief on the cross next to Jesus never heard of the Holy Spirit, but was stil;l saved.

    I stay way away from words like "Nicean or Apostles Creed". I'm just not smart enough to remember all those extra-biblical terms. I believe God has three distict personalities, each with a different role in our Christian lives.
     
    #7 Bro. Curtis, Dec 30, 2004
  8. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Don't forget the Trinitarian event of the Baptism of Jesus: Jesus baptized, comes out of the water and the Father says this is my beloved son. In the Gospels the Baptism of Jesus is Trinitarian, and involve: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So it does not suprize me when Jesus gives the command to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    Actually, you post is thorough. You show he Holy Spirit active in the world. I love reflecting on the Trinity: Reflecting on who God is in himself. If God had never created the universe, in himself he is still Community of Love: One God, three persons. Jesus revealed the wonderful truth that: God is Love. This was true even before he created: God is Love for all eternity, before creation and after creation.

    peace
     
    #8 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  9. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: according to tradition, the baby sprinkling (RCC baptism) is salvific. So according to tradition, a belief in the trinity is not neccessarily required for salvation.

    Response: Imagine that A baby being saved, and born again in baptism. They have done nothing, all is grace. Knowing that God would save a helpless infant is knowing that God's salvation is a FREE gift of Grace. wonderful.

    peace
     
    #9 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  10. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    "I stay way away from words like "Nicean or Apostles Creed". I'm just not smart enough to remember all those extra-biblical terms. I believe God has three distict personalities, each with a different role in our Christian lives."

    lol - so "three distict personalities" isn't extra-biblical?
     
    #10 dean198, Dec 30, 2004
  11. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    You think babies are born sinless. I see them as complete hedonists, from minuite one.

    Seriously, I do believe folks inherit Adam's sinful nature at birth. Don't read too far into it, as I'm positive that God's mercy extends to infants, somehow I just don't think a merciful God would send a baby to hell.

    But to be born again, one has to understand what sin is, has done, and what the price is, and who paid it. The holy spirit could not dwell in you until these requirements are met.

    More later.
     
    #11 Bro. Curtis, Dec 30, 2004
  12. dean198

    dean198 Member

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    The Creed of Nicaea taught that the Son was from the Father by eternal generation. The teaching of the eternal generation of the Son is not upheld in much of Evangelical Protestantism. But the very word "Son" speaks of derivation from the Father, and to deny this is, I believe, to deny that Jesus is the Son of God....to say that he is 'God the Son' denies this derivation, and is not the apostolic form of speech. Nor is 'one God, three persons.'
    Dean
     
    #12 dean198, Dec 30, 2004
  13. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    I disagree. John 10:30 takes care of that. Jesus says he has a father, but is one with him. There is no denial there.
     
    #13 Bro. Curtis, Dec 31, 2004
  14. DietofWorms

    DietofWorms Guest

    Can you expand on this thought a little please. The previous poster had said that "much of Evangelical Protestantism" does not believe in the eternal generation of the Son (I think that this may be a rather generalized statement but I don't know that much about Evangelicals).

    Are you saying, based from the the above quote, that this supposedly common Evangelical belief is incorrect or that it is possible to believe that Jesus is the Son of God without believing in his eternal generation?
     
    #14 DietofWorms, Dec 31, 2004
  15. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    No. I think I've said all I'm going to on this. I believe in the trinity, and base it on the above posts, and what everyone else believes is their business.
     
    #15 Bro. Curtis, Dec 31, 2004
  16. DietofWorms

    DietofWorms Guest

    K Bro

    I respect your wish to bow out of the discussion.

    Is there anyone else who can address the above question? I'll repeat: Is it the commonly held Evangelical belief that Jesus is the Son of God (second person of the Trinty) but not eternally generated of the Father?
     
    #16 DietofWorms, Dec 31, 2004
  17. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: to be born again, one has to understand what sin is, has done, and what the price is, and who paid it.

    Response: Here is one of the differences between you and the catholic teaching.

    For you being born again is mainly about forgiveness of sin. For catholic teaching, to be born again is to be Born. What does it mean to be born: To become a Son. The core of being born again(being born from above) is to be made into a child of God, filled with God's grace. Now in this baptism, any stain of original sin is erased, and if adult any actual sin is forgiven. There is a forgiveness element, But the core is becoming a child of God in Grace: And that can be done as an infant.

    I know you will disagree, but I just wanted to let you know the catholic position since you brought it up.

    peace
     
    #17 TP, Dec 31, 2004
  18. DietofWorms

    DietofWorms Guest

    Please forgive a newbie:
    But wouldn't it be better to take the above discussion to a different thread? Although the above distinction is important - it really has nothing to do with the Trinity.
     
    #18 DietofWorms, Dec 31, 2004
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Its that "sola scriptura" thing coming back to bite you. Those who accept the teaching that doctrinal statements MUST be rooted and proved by scripture alone -- do not base doctrinal views on "creedal statements" or endless "repetition".

    If the congregation only "believes" because it is trained like a group of drones to repeat a "statement" then they can be easily swayed by the first person coming along with an actual understanding of God's word or even a wrong view of God's Word.

    Better to have the Trinity - Bible based in its teaching and presentation than simply "creedal".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Dec 31, 2004
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