Backslidden Christians True or False

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by C.S. Murphy, Feb 9, 2004.

  1. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
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    I read in another thread that it is impossible for a christian to backslide, what do you think?
    I assume by backsliding the poster meant stepping into sin.
    Murph
     
  2. LadyEagle

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    Yes. Been there, done that.
     
  3. Daniel David

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    Murphy, I would like to explain what I had said earlier.

    Backslidden is a term found EXCLUSIVELY in the Old Testament scriptures. The various passages are as follows:

    Proverbs 14:14
    The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.

    On what basis do we say this person is saved? We can't. Let us look at the other usages then.

    Jeremiah 2:19
    Your own wickedness will correct you, And your backslidings will rebuke you. Know therefore and see that it is an evil and bitter thing That you have forsaken the LORD your God, And the fear of Me is not in you," Says the Lord GOD of hosts.

    These people are clearly lost.

    Jeremiah 3:6
    The Lord said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot.

    Again, people who have embraced gods other than the Lord.

    Jeremiah 3:8
    Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.

    Continuing the above thought, Israel had departed from the Lord. The people were not obeying the covenant. They were embracing other gods.

    Jeremiah 3:11
    Then the Lord said to me, "Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah.

    Judah gave lipservice toward God while inwardly not believing in him. Israel was openly wicked. This verse teaches us that the Lord is not impressed with lipservice.

    Jeremiah 3:12
    Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: 'Return, backsliding Israel,' says the Lord; 'I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,' says the Lord; ' I will not remain angry forever.

    Although Israel was away from God, he has promised to one day bring her back. I need to point out that Israel was embracing other gods. They were psuedo-pagans.

    Jeremiah 3:14
    Return, O backsliding children," says the Lord; "for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

    God's marriage to Israel was not equivalent to salvation, as not every Jew was saved. He is talking about faithfulness to the covenant that they agreed to live by. That is what backsliding is all about.

    Jeremiah 3:22
    "Return, you backsliding children, And I will heal your backslidings." "Indeed we do come to You, For You are the Lord our God.

    They will one day be saved. We know this takes place at the end of the tribulation.

    Jeremiah 5:6
    Therefore a lion from the forest shall slay them, A wolf of the deserts shall destroy them; A leopard will watch over their cities. Everyone who goes out from there shall be torn in pieces, Because their transgressions are many; Their backslidings have increased.

    Okay, if the Jews were faithful to the covenant, they would live in peace. However, if they were unfaithful, they could expect great sorrow. Again you have disobedience to the covenant.

    Jeremiah 8:5
    Why has this people slidden back, Jerusalem, in a perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit, They refuse to return.

    They hold fast to deceit? This is supposed to be a believer? I don't think so.

    Jeremiah 14:7
    O Lord, though our iniquities testify against us, Do it for Your name's sake; For our backslidings are many, We have sinned against You.

    This verse is one of repentance. It doesn't indicate the status of their salvation one way or another.

    Okay, there are still others in Isaiah and Hosea. If anyone wishes, you may post them. Here are a few things we can definitely conclude with the term "backslide":

    1. It definitely means lost people in several verses.
    2. It is strong disobedience to the Law.

    I think one of the problems people have with a concept like this is that they equate Old Testament Israel with the New Testament Church.

    Israel was a nation of saved and unsaved people. The church is completely and exclusively saved.

    Israel had a condition covenant to live by. The church has an uncondition covenant to live by.

    Israel as a nation could become apostate. The church can never apostasize.

    I will post more on this idea later, but suffice it to say right now that I used to believe the whole carnal christian bit. Through diligent study, I became convinced of what I presently believe.
     
  4. Johnv

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    Every Christian has backslidden. Every Christian backslides. Every Christian also has slidden forward [​IMG] . If salvation were contingent on how well, or how poorly, we're doing, it would be works based, which is unbiblical.
     
  5. IfbReformer

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    Every Christian has backslidden. Every Christian backslides. Every Christian also has slidden forward [​IMG] . If salvation were contingent on how well, or how poorly, we're doing, it would be works based, which is unbiblical. </font>[/QUOTE]Johnv,

    Amen and Amen.

    These guys still have yet to overcome 1 Corinthians 3 in there theory that there is no possiblity for a truely saved person to die in a backslidden state:

    "1 Corinthians 3:11-15(NIV)
    "11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

    Here is someone, who is saved, and when he life is weighed in the balance, and if his works are "burned up" he will still be saved but receive no reward. How can they explain a Christian not getting any rewards if all Christians will be faithful?

    IFBReformer
     
  6. Watchman

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    These are great responses guys.
    We are freely saved by God's grace, through faith.
    Rewards are earned as we build upon the foundation
    layed by Christ Jesus.
    At salvation we becomes sons of God. After that, God deals with us a Father would deal with His son. Do children sometime disobey? God deals with us for our own good. We are compared to sheep. Do sheep go astray? It is the Shephard's part to see the sheep back from it's wandering, even to the point of breaking a leg, if necessary.
     
  7. C.S. Murphy

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    Daniel David I am looking forward to hearing what you believe. Thanks for the OT search on backslidden but let's not get hung up on terminology. I assume by your quote above that you do not sin and have not sinned since you accepted Christ, please correct me if I am mistaken.
    murph
     
  8. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
    IJohn 1:8

    We don't need all the verses in the Old Testament to prove we, as Christians, backslide. These verses are directed to Christians...not the lost.

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
    1John 1:9

    Sin needs to be forgiven on a daily basis whether we call it backsliding or not. God knew we would sin and offered us a solution. He also tells us that if we say we do not sin, we are in denial.

    We are called saints in the Bible. We are also 'sinners saved by grace'.

    JMHO,
    §ue
     
  9. Daniel David

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    Sue, I think I understand you now.

    You made an assertion on another thread about backslidden Christians. I challenged the point and then posted quite a number of verses that actually mention 'backsliding'.

    I proceeded to show that the biblical definition of 'backsliding' is different that yours.

    Since I did that, you are now saying that study is irrelevant?

    What?
     
  10. Daniel David

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    I have never said that Christians do not sin.

    Christians do sin, will continue to sin, and will not be perfect until they are in the presense of the Lord.

    However, the direction a true believer is going is always forward.

    Romans 8 tells us that those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God.

    Therefore, we NEVER move backwards.

    The Holy Spirit doesn't lead us backwards.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Daniel - Hold your ground. Backsliding is a 100% OT term that is irrelevant to the believers today. It is an emotional whipping boy of the finneyesque drag-em-down-the-aisle mentality that has captured the fancy of some number-conscious baptists.

    How many sermons did Jesus or Paul or Peter preach on "backsliding"?

    We all sin. Daily. At what point to we "cross the line" and become "backslidden"? Hard, fast, number of sins, heart attitude?

    Sounds like trying to press an arminian for the number of sins he can commit before he loses his salvation! Same mentality, for certain sure.
     
  12. Johnv

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    Jesus gave the parable of the Prodigal Son. The Prodigal son was quintissential backslider. Yet he was still saved.
     
  13. C.S. Murphy

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    Well Daniel apparently what you now believe is different that what Paul believed on this subject. Please look at 1 Cor 3 vs 1-3 Paul speaks to them as carnal and notes their sins even adding that they walk as men. IMO he is stating that they were going the wrong direction, now whether you call this going backwards sideways or whatever they cannot be going forward while Paul declares they are carnal and walking as men. I understand that the corinthian church was laden with problems but in vs 1 Paul calls these people "brethren" and "Babes in Christ" both of these terms seem to indicate that they were saved but walking as carnal men. Please correct me if I am mistaken but I feel your view opposes Pauls.
    Murph
     
  14. C.S. Murphy

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    Daniel please explain how the babes in Christ that Paul calls Brethren in 1 Cor 3 are not true believers.
    Murph
     
  15. C.S. Murphy

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    Pleeeeeease!!! our friend Daniel is doing what he has always done best. Debating terms into the ground until some can't even remember what the origional question was. Irrevelent term or not every Christian today and every day has a battle with the flesh and when they choose to follow the flesh they take a direction, that direction cannot be forward because they are not following God when they follow the flesh. Call it what you will but I still view much of this discussion as boasting.
    Murph
     
  16. Mike McK

    Mike McK
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  17. Daniel David

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    Murph, your last post on the previous page had me laughing out loud. Good one. I didn't realize I was known for debating. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, I will only post the text so that others may know what is being discussed.

    1 Cor. 3:1-3

    1. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

    2. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

    3. for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

    Okay, Paul is saying that they are not as mature as they should be. All the fighting and arguing is the proof in the puddin'.

    No Lordship advocate denies that people sin and that they can even fall into sin for a period of time. I count myself in amongst them as well.

    Now, the question is - what is Paul saying exactly?

    He is telling them that he has to instruct them on how to act the same way he would have to instruct a lost person through evangelism.

    They aren't technically carnal. They are acting carnal. Note that he blames the fightings and such as carnal behavior. This is stuff that lost people do. They shouldn't be doing this.

    Okay, in Romans 8, Paul equates being carnal with the following:

    6. For to be carnally minded is death...
    7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
    8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God...
    9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit

    What does this mean except that carnal people are lost?

    Okay, on to the other point.

    Say Johnny has a problem with anger. It is a real problem. It is probably the most prominent sin in his life. His anger problem doesn't necessarily mean he never got saved. What it does mean is that he has a sin problem that he needs to deal with.

    Through some mind altering drugs like valium, he can overcome his sin. Just kidding. Drugs don't get rid of sin.

    All right, before I interrupted myself, I was saying that he needs to deal with this sin.

    Here is where the two sides butt heads.

    Cheap grace says that he is backslidden, moving backwards, not surrendered to the Lord, not a following (hee hee), and other punch lines, errrrggg, guilt ridden statements.

    The LS and Means view says that God is still working in OTHER areas of his life (meaning he is still moving forward in other areas), but still struggling with anger.

    This is what it means by the Holy Spirit leading true believers. Some may sprint, some may jog, some may walk, and others may get a leg cramp, but all will move forward. Christ is the prize and treasure, and all Christians will finish this race.
     
  18. Flynmonkie

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    Hi!
    :( I completely disagree. It is most certainly possible for a Christian to backslide and not loose their “salvation”

    Depending on how severe. :confused: I for one, walked away from the bible thinking it was fallible, someone must have translated it wrong. For years I believed in God and Jesus (the basics) But the Bible was not necessarily “Gods Word”. Of course God has impressed upon me the answers to those questions I had that caused me to think that way, and now I believe the bible is completely infallible. [​IMG]

    During that time, I honestly believe he was ever so present in my life. He knew my heart! He knew my pain and hurt! [​IMG] I look back and I tell you there is no other way I would have survived in this world during this time if he were not carrying me. He would pick me up and brush me off – tried to heal me, set me on my feet again - only for me to go in the exact opposite direction he wanted for me. :rolleyes: I just could not tell you how many times this happened. I see it so clearly now! Until recently he brought me to my knees, and put that information he wanted right there in front of me like – :mad: OK! You HAVE NO reason not to listen now!! And now he has picked me up, and is healing me again. But this time, I am doing his will. [​IMG]

    I had been praying about this recently, I actually was not sure I was saved during that time, I had questions such as yours.. In fact, I just realized this today! After I wrote my hello here and that I was not sure I was saved during my time of backsliding…. I thought about this all day and all of a sudden, I realized – He never left me! Just like a father to a child doing wrong. He kept trying to turn you back! He is just awesome! [​IMG]

    Sometimes, as I have seen in my life, I think we can go backwards and learn lessons- before we develop a spiritual understanding then moving forwards again to better Christian Conduct.

    We are sinners. We all come short of the Glory of God. All sin is created equal in his eyes. (Except to deny him!) We will never be perfect, it is not possible, that does not mean we should not try. He wants to look in our faces and have them be a mirror to him. We should keep trying to attain that! However, sometimes we are sinning until we realize it is a sin, at that point we develop spiritual understanding. How many times have you listened to a sermon and went, WOW I do that and never realized I was sinning. While for others it is obvious?

    I believe only you know in your heart what your true intentions are during backsliding. That makes all the difference in the world. It is between you and God! Open your heart to him; if you give completely to him, let him speak to your heart, he will guide you to the answers, even if you don’t like them, trust him. His way is better!. I know because I feel/see this every day!
     
  19. C.S. Murphy

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    Now Daniel I am getting confused, you are saying that true believers do sin and falter and i am happy to hear you say so. But you still believe that when a person sins they are moving forward and not backward. this is where I am confused, I don't care what you call it but when I sin I am not going toward God but away from Him. I agree that as a whole spiritual being I am always heading toward the prize as paul said but the battle still rages on a daily basis and I cannot understand your claim that we cannot go backwards. So do you really have a point to all this or is it just that you want to vilify some as practicing cheap grace. I know that grace is not cheap nor is it free because my savior paid His life for it but to me it was freely given and received. I can be a disgrace to grace and so can you and I truly feel that when we do so we are making a choice to turn from God. ThankfullY He will never let us fall but we can turn.
    Murph
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Murph, I am saying that although a person is sinning in a particular area of his life, and it is a real struggle, God is still working in yet OTHER areas of this guys life.

    Let me use the anger example again.

    The guy has an anger problem. However, he has been doing alot of study on the proper role of the husband toward his wife.

    So, he might be struggling with one sin, but he has still grown in his faith in other areas.

    That is what I am talking about. He is still moving forward.
     

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