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Backslidden Christians True or False

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by C.S. Murphy, Feb 9, 2004.

  1. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    Ok. So will you say that while this person may be growing in some area he has stepped away from God in this area he is struggling with. And while we are looking at examples what if this gentlemen is not growing in any area but is infact currently rebelling against everything that is good including God. What is your diagnosis of him.

    Murph
     
  2. HeDied4U

    HeDied4U Well-Known Member
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    Now I have an idea that I may be about to pull this thread slightly off topic, but something has been said that needs to be responded to.

    Daniel David has stated...

    I beg to differ. Anger is probably one of the most misunderstood emotions that we humans have. Anger in and of itself is not a sin. It's what we do with that anger that can be sin. Even the bible says..."be angry, and yet do not sin. let not the sun go down on your anger" Ephesians 4:26 NASB.

    I used to, and still do to some extent, struggle with an "anger problem." It ruined my first marriage, and unfortunately it has reared its ugly head in my second marriage also. From my own experience, and from what my counselor has told me, people who have a problem with anger seldom "move forward" in other areas of their spiritual life.

    Let's take your example as an example. You said that a man with an anger problem may be doing diligent study on becoming a better husband. That's all well and good, but a man with "anger problems" will eventually lash out at his wife, no matter how much study he does. I have a divorce decree that proves it. Let's take it a step further. I have a problem with anger, but I pray hard every day. Hmmmmm, all of a sudden I lose my temper, blow my top, or whatever term can be used, and suddenly what happens to the desire to pray? It's gone in an instant!!! In both instances, I have stopped moving forward; have I stopped being a Christian as well??

    I could go on and on, but I won't. Suffice it to say that your example, and any conclusions you draw from it, are wrong. And I'm not just confining this statement to the realm of an anger problem. A sin in one area of your life will eventually manifest itself in other areas, and drag you down. Don't you ever doubt it.

    God Bless

    Adam

    p.s. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread :D
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Note that I did say 'anger PROBLEM'. I never said anything about anger being a sin.

    Also, like I said, you might have stopped growing in one area, but not in all of them, at least, not if you are a Christian.
     
  4. Watchman

    Watchman New Member

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    Related to this: can one lose reward? There are certainly references in the Bible that confirms this. In losing rewards, that certainly does not speak of forward progress to me. This all reminds me of the doctrine of one of the cults (I forget which one) that when Adam fell, he fell forward.
     
  5. Fraser

    Fraser New Member

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    I have backslided, NOT proud of it!
    But I beleive if your a true Christian,God will bring Him back! He did with me.
    Thank God! for His Love!
     
  6. Jensen

    Jensen New Member

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    Someone used the prodigal son as backing for backsliding. If I am not mistaken, the prodigal son was not saved to begin with. It says at the end of the account (parable) that he was lost and now is found.

    They went out from us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us (1 John 2:19)

    (1 John 3:6) No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

    Discipleship is progressive growth toward Christlikeness. You cannot be a believer and not be a disciple. [if you love me (Christ) you'll keep my commands ---- keeping the commands result in spiritual growth = discipleship]

    Many people are mistaken in the end. The gate is wide. Many thought they could do a few good things and enter, however, they did not TRUELY love Christ. They knew he was Lord... they even cry out, "Lord, Lord". But Christ said "depart... I never knew you." Even though they knew He was Lord - - He wasn't THEIR Lord! Do not be fooled.
     
  7. Fraser

    Fraser New Member

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    Yes it says many will say Lord,Lord.
    But this is refering to WORKS!
    Also,its impossible to be perfect, even being a Christian.We have our carnal nature STILL.
    We have our FLESH still.
    Thats why we have John 1:9
    Romans 12:1- Which is our reasonable service.
    refering to making our bodies,a living sacrifice,
    Holy,acceptable unto God.
    did not Paul, and the other Apostles, address the churches,tring to help,other beleivers,to get through there rough times.
    I fell away from God, I take responsiblity for that! But the way I was raised,also didnt help!
    Because you would have, had to be perfect!
    Not being perfect,I became very hard on myself!
    which made me want to give up!
     
  8. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    How exactly can you prove this!!!! Let me see, how many areas can a person have going on at one time. Several of course so are you saying that if I am failing in 100 areas I am not a christian or if I am failing in 50 and doing good in 50, or maybe peradventure I am only failing in ten areas am I lost.What if I am only going forward in 10 areas and failing in 90. My friend this is nothing but WORKS. Please stop your boasting it hurts my ears.

    Murph
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Murph, my friend, I think there is some basic assumptions that are being made that is causing some of the disagreement. I will try to post what I see needs to be corrected:

    1. Christians do NOT start off perfect in their walk.

    I think that some people believe this either intentionally or just simply assume it.

    This is where some of this backslidden idea comes from.

    Imagine a tree. It doesn't start as a tree. It starts as a seed. That seed has the genetic make-up of the whole tree. When the seed dies, it then springs up and grows. The tree never shrinks back down into a sapling. It never goes backwards.

    The same idea is true of a Christian. Once he is saved, the Lord begins to grow him. So yes, he may struggle in 99 areas while the Lord is concentrating on 1 area. The thing is that the person is still going forward, because those other areas have never seen growth at all.

    Let's go back to the anger example.

    The guy is struggling with anger. He is also struggling with laziness, lust, pride, greed, etc.

    The Lord is teaching him to better understand the role of the husband. As he grows in grace and knowledge, it starts to have an effect in other areas of his life. It starts to infect his sin of lust and laziness. He starts to become a harder worker, so he gets a better grasp on what is valuable and his sin of greed is then affected.

    Now, he still has weaknesses in these areas, but he is slowly but surely growing in the Lord.

    He starts at NOTHING so there is NOTHING on which to go backwards. He can only move in the direction the Lord is leading him, and Romans 8:14 says that the Holy Spirit leads true believers. I will say again - to go backwards is proof of not being a true believer.
     
  10. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    Ok. I want to look at your quotes here a little closer. First you said "the person is still going forward because those other areas (where he is sinning)have never seen growth at all". So if I am understanding your thoughts here the only area in which a believer can sin is an area in which he has never grown and therefore once he has grown in that area if he ever sins that sin again he is really not saved. Secondly you say that to go backwards is proof that the person is not a true believer. Sorry DD but I must ask you if you have ever sinned since you were saved? If your reasoning is carried out your responce must be that any sin you commit or have committed since your conversion is in an area of your life that you have not grown in yet. Is that really fair or is that not a way to explain away ones sins. Please be honest, you have sinned just like the rest of us yet you evidently are grown enough as a Christian to teach others. What is this reasoning teaching others, that if they continue to have problems with certain sins they are lost. Also IMO you have never satisfactorily answered my question about the carnal christians Paul is talking to in 1 or chap 3. Was Paul in error when he called them brethren and babes in Christ. Or was their carnality just an area in which they had not grown and if so what if they grow and then struggle in that area again. Would Paul have to retract his calling them brethren and declare that he was in error because as it turned out because of their lack of committment they really weren't brethren after all. Another question is if he is not saved how does he grow in an area. Are you saying that his limited growth is performed by his own works. Are you possibly speaking of some sort of limited or temporary atonement?
    Murph
     
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Murph, call me sometime. It might be helpful to just talk about it over the phone. I know I am not explaining it right, or you are not understanding what I am saying.

    Does anyone else follow me? If not, I will try and reword what I am thinking.
     
  12. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    Brother I am not trying to be difficult here but honestly when you make a statement lik ethe following:

    I will say again - to go backwards is proof of not being a true believer.

    You must be able to explain it.
    Murph
     
  13. HeDied4U

    HeDied4U Well-Known Member
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    First, Daniel David said...

    (emphasis added by Adam)

    Then, in response to my comment on the above, Daniel David said...

    Well, it sure sounds to me like you're implying anger is a sin, since you grouped an "anger problem" in with sinning.

    Just wanted to point that out to you.

    God Bless!!!

    Adam [​IMG]
     
  14. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    If one is an angry person, he will view all areas in his life through that anger. He is sinning (backsliding) and must realize that, before he can confess anger as sin, and ask God to help him overcome.

    If one is not as close to God today, as he was yesterday, he is in a backslidden condition.

    Is he lost? No! He is a carnal Christian and must make things right or he will never be able to go forward in his Christian life (in any area).

    Sinning (even in one area) changes how we view ALL areas. If we have sin in our life (even in one area) it will effectively stop the work of the Holy Spirt in our lives (in every area).

    It is kind of like breaking a leg. We have broken a bone in ONE area of our body, but it affects ALL areas of our body.

    Sin is sin. Whether it be one sin or a multitude of sins...it will affect how we act and how much of God's grace we are willing to accept to overcome that sin.

    When we sin, we take a step backwards (i.e. away from God). That is called backsliding. We will remain backslidden until we confess our sin. God is waiting...

    [​IMG] §ue
     
  15. David Mark

    David Mark New Member

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    I see things in terms of darkness and light.

    If I walk in the light I will see things about myself. Some of those things I will not like and some I will like. Will I admit to God or agree with him about what I am or what I see when I am in the light? If the light causes too much pain and I think I am unworthy to receive forgiveness I am more than likely going to step out of or hide from the light.

    If I turn away from the light there is only darkness for me. I cannot find what I am looking for in the darkness.

    In the light is the safest place to be.
    In the darkness is the most dangerous place to be.

    Dave.
     
  16. wayne0214

    wayne0214 New Member

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    It has been my experience, that when one begins to lose faith (backsliding)It is usually due to their attempting to prove themselves to their congregation, or to show that they are truely Christian. The letter to the Galatians deals with this very problem. When we assume that our religious efforts are all that is necessary in order maintain our salvation through our own performances, then we have violated the grace of God. (Gal. 5:1-5). And this goes for those who monitor themselves for obeying the Law.
     
  17. HeDied4U

    HeDied4U Well-Known Member
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    Thank you Sue, and Amen and Amen!! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    God Bless!!!

    Adam [​IMG]
     
  18. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    1. Again, you are redefining words to suit your purpose. Nevermind the multiple Scriptures that you ignore to continue this diatribe.

    2. The Scriptures say that we are led by the Spirit. Apparently to you that means the Spirit occassionally leads us into sin. Think through your position here.

    3. Maybe, maybe not. Who are you to judge their salvation? Huh?

    4. According to the Bible, to be carnal is to be lost. Read Romans 8 if you don't believe me. I don't hae to defend the lion, I just have to let him free.

    5. Absolutely bogus. See my answer to number 2 again.

    6. According to what Scripture? I realize this is popular preaching and keeps many people very comfortable because they just have to try and not be 'carnal', but this stuff is nonsensical.

    7. You said - effectively stop the work of the Holy Spirt . When exactly did you become more powerful that God? So according to you, the Spirit leads when you let him? Is that it? God now gets the permission of people in order to act. Nice.

    8. What is the point? Has anyone denied that sin affects all of us?

    9. I don't quite understand your point. It seems like a platitude of some sort. Please explain.

    10. You cannot prove this biblically. You have ONLY made assertion (which anyone can do). You have yet to base a single point on Scripture or a theological reason. Until then, it is just your oppinion. I on the other hand have posted many texts and reasons.

    11. Aside from the error of your belief, whatever helps you sleep at night.
     
  19. HeDied4U

    HeDied4U Well-Known Member
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    Daniel David has said...

    I know that this was directed more at Sue than anyone, but I'd like to take a stab at it if I may. I believe that yes, the Spirit does lead when we let Him. Have we become more powerful than God? In a sense, yes we have. Now before you claim that I'm spouting some new age doctrine, let me direct your attention to 1 Thessalonians 5:19 (KJV even lol), which states, "Quench not the Holy Spirit."

    Let's take a look at the word quench as defined by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary ...

    --------------

    Main Entry: quench
    Pronunciation: 'kwench
    Function: verb
    Etymology: Middle English, from Old English -cwencan; akin to Old English -cwincan to vanish, Old Frisian quinka
    transitive senses
    1 a : PUT OUT, EXTINGUISH b : to put out the light or fire of <quench glowing coals with water> c : to cool (as heated metal) suddenly by immersion (as in oil or water) d : to cause to lose heat or warmth <you have quenched the warmth of France toward you -- Alfred Tennyson>
    2 a : to bring (something immaterial) to an end typically by satisfying, damping, cooling, or decreasing <a rational understanding of the laws of nature can quench impossible desires -- Lucius Garvin> <the praise that quenches all desire to read the book -- T. S. Eliot> b : to terminate by or as if by destroying : ELIMINATE <the Commonwealth party quenched a whole generation of play-acting -- Margery Bailey> <quench a rebellion> c : to relieve or satisfy with liquid <quenched his thirst at a wayside spring>
    intransitive senses
    1 : to become extinguished : COOL
    2 : to become calm : SUBSIDE

    -----------------------------

    Now IMHO, when we sin, we are "throwing water" on the workings of the Holy Spirit, so to speak, thus limiting what He can do in our lives.

    This may be a poor analogy, but I tend to think of it in terms of my first marriage (yes, the one that was done in, in large part, by an "anger problem." When my anger wasn't manifesting itself, things went well. I did for her, and she did for me. But once the anger flared up, and I acted out because of it, she would want nothing to do with me. She wouldn't want to help in any thing or any way. I basically quenched our relationship. When I would cool down, I would ask for her forgiveness, she would give it, and our relationship continued, albeit a little strained for a few days afterwards.

    Thank God that when we slip up, and quench the workings of the Spirit, and our relationship with our Father isn't what it should be, we can confess our sins (1 John 1:9), and our right relationship is restored.

    God Bless!!!

    Adam [​IMG]
     
  20. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    As I said, I do believe you can slow down, but stop or go backwards... nonsense.

    Consider a few verses later:

    1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

    23) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely ; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    24) He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it .

    Note a few things:

    1. God is the one who sanctifies. You do not sanctify yourself.
    2. You will be preserved blameless in Christ.
    3. God WILL sanctify you.

    Pay attention especially to the third point. There is NO chance of God not sanctifying you or of him completing his purpose in believers.
     
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