Bapticostal Questions

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Nov 29, 2004.

  1. Phillip

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    Bapticostals:

    Do you believe in a seperate baptism of the Holy Spirit as shown by speaking in unknown tongues?

    Do you believe you can loose your salvation?

    What is the purpose of speaking in "unknown" tongues?

    How did the Bapticostals begin? My guess is that a group of Pentecostals joined a Baptist church at one time and changed its doctrines.

    Why don't you just join the Pentecostals? Or start a new denomination. (If you say that you have, rather than changed a Baptist church then you are obviously not truly Baptist and should not be posting here.)
     
  2. Ben W

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    I am openly Bapticostal, Yet answers are going to vary to your questions between people that may wear the Bapticostal label.

    1. I believe that Baptism of the Holy Spirit is given at Salvation.

    2. Yes people can lose their salvation if they willingly turn away from it.

    3. Speaking in Tounges is a Spiritual Gift given by God to glorify Him.

    4. Try the PFWB home page and have a look at their history
    http://www.pfwb.org/

    5. Why join the Pentecostals? It is quite ok to be a Pentecostal within a Baptist church.

    There are several Baptist Pentecostal Churches, the Full Gospel Baptist and the Pentecostal Freewill Baptist Church being two examples.

    There are also a number of Bapticostals in various Baptist Denominations. Suggesting that Spiritual Gifts have ceased and that Cessationism is required to be a Baptist is no way in line with the Baptist Distinctives which say nothing of the sort!
     
  3. Matt Black

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    1. At salvation, not subsequent a la Finney
    2. Yes, if they knowingly and freely reject Christ
    3. Edification of the Body, same as all the other spiritual gifts.
    4. Wot Ben sed, plus in the UK a lot of Baptist churches were 'caught in the backwash' resulting from the waves of charismatic renewal and the charismatic movement generally from the 1970s onwards, so most Baptist churches here are, to a greater or lesser extent, charismatic in some way or another; don't forget that the charismatic movement, as well as spawning its own New Churches such as Vineyard, also hevily influenced existing denominations, and the Baptists here were no exception.

    5. See above and Ben's post - no need. Also, as a nice, comfortable, middle-class Baptist, I think the Pentes can be a bit OTT! :D

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  4. mickd7

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    Thanks for that warm loving response to us fellow Christians Phillip!!!!!!
    Ben is right! We are just as Bap[tist as any one here. Maybe that is not a good term to use but I believe everything the Baptist teach but on top of that I believe the Gifts of the Spirit are also for Baptist or anyone else that has faith to believe God for them.
    In answer to your questions.
    1. I believe that all Christians receive the Holy Ghost at salvation, but the filling of the Holy Ghost is something we can do after salvation and indeed are commanded to do so and that when we are filled we can speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
    2. I believe once saved always saved unless by our free will, we give it up. But we are saved only once..
    3. We speak in tongues to edify ourselves and to speak to God the mysteries of the spirit. With interpretations we edify the whole body.
    Bapticostals began when some Baptist reconized that indeed the Gifts are for the church today and asked God for the Gifts of the Spirit. And thru faith they got what they asked God for.
     
  5. Plain ol' Ralph

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    Maybe the fruits of the Spirit rather ought to be sought after than the gifts? But then I am certain that statement will be ravished by the "spiritual" :rolleyes:
     
  6. robycop3

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    Are fruits not gifts?
     
  7. dianetavegia

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  8. dianetavegia

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    The Fruits of the Spirit are the results of the Holy Spirit working within us and in our lives. Gifts are given as God sees fit.

    GIFTS
    1 Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

    FRUIT
    Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
     
  9. dean198

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    Part 1 (since it won't let me post it all at once).

    I believe in a literal baptism with the Spirit, and in speaking in languages, but I do not believe it is the initial evidence. My beliefs are authentic, old-style, Baptist, before all those new fangled ideas about the gifts being ceased came in. The General Baptist 1660 Confession says:

    "That it is the duty of all such who are believers baptized to draw nigh unto God in submission to that principle of Christ’s doctrine, to wit, prayer and laying on of hands, that they may receive the promise of the Holy Spirit (Heb. 6:1, 2; Acts 8:12, 15, 17; 2 Tim. 1:6), whereby they may mortify the deeds of the body (Rom. 8:13), and live in all things answerable to their professed intentions and desires, even to the honour of Him who hath called them out of darkness into His marvellous light."

    The General Baptist Orthodox Creed of 1678 likewise stated:

    "Prayer, with imposition of hands by the bishop, or Elder, on baptized believers, as such, for the reception of the holy promised spirit of Christ, we believe is a principle of Christ’s doctrine, and ought to be practiced and submitted to by every baptized believer in order to receive the promised spirit of the father and son."

    This doctrine is still taught today in some General Baptist churches, such as the Old Baptist Union, of which I was a member in England.

    As for tongues, In his work, St Paul’s Catechism, answering the question, "But are not the gifts of the Spirit ceased," Thomas Grantham, the seventeenth century leader of the General Baptists, writes, "No such matter! unless our unworthiness deprive us of them. Are not these exhortations still in force? Covet earnestly the best Gifts. Follow after Charity, and desire spiritual Gifts, and rather than ye may prophesy. Covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with Tongues."
     
  10. dean198

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    Part 2
    Yes, though the Calvinistic 'perseverance' isn't that far off, since it teaches the need to endure to the end. The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833 states: “That such only are real believers as endure unto the end; that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from mere professors.” In contrast, the "Eternal Security" or OSAS teaching does not require a believer to persevere to the end in order to be saved.

    I agree with Thomas Helwys, who established one of the earliest Baptist churches in England:

    "That men may fall away from the grace of God, and from the truth, which they have received and acknowledged, after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted of the good word of God, and of the powers of the world to come. And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein and overcome. That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish. And therefore let no man presume to think that because he has, or had one grace, therefore he shall always have grace. But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling."
     
  11. dean198

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    Part 3

    To edify, and as a sign

    What happened is Protestants joined the Baptists and wrecked the Pentecostal witness. Then later on people changed their doctrines (instead of doing the honourable thing and starting their own church) and adopted Plymouth Brethren teachings like 'once saved always saved' and Dispensationalism.
     
  12. Plain Old Bill

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    How many kinds of bapticostals are there? What are thier doctrines?
    The problems I have with the toungues debate are:
    Groups,fellowships,or denominations that promote toungues tend to lean toward glossalalia.My understanding is that when people spoke in toungues other people heard in thier own language and got saved.
    When a group,fellowship,denomination adopts the toungues teaching they tend to demmand that all who are filled with the spirit speak in toungues.It is the Holy Spirit who gives the gifts as He wills ,not as we will.
    When someone in the church is sick they are to go to the elders of the church,have them anoint them with oil and pray over them. The pentecostal teaching appears to have given this power to special healers along with people being slain in the spirit.Where is that in the Bible?
    Then we have the name it and clain it bunch. Where does this come from?
    This is the picture I have. If I am wrong I am willing to be taught.
     
  13. mickd7

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    I was saved and tongues were a sign to me. I did not understand it when it happened but the young fellow that led me into the sinners prayer briefly spoke in tongues at the end of the prayer. I asked him what that was and he put no particuar attention to it, but said "just speaking in tongues". I am convinced that little bit of tongues helped me along when I received salvation.
    Tongues also can be a prayer or talking to God in the mysteries of the spirit as stated in 1 Cor12.
    I know when I pray in tongues it releases me and frees me and my spirit prays when I cannot think of what to pray in english.
    It is hard to explain but tongues are a blessing.
    I also believe that when we get saved we receive the Holy Spirit but the Bible does say we should seek to be filled with the Spirit and I believe that when we are filled we can speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, but because some of us are taught from the get go that tongues are not for today, we have fear or doubts and we cannot receive anything in the Spirit without faith. In other words you have to believe it before you can get it.
    I do not believe we seek tongues but we should seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit and I guarantee you that if you ask Jesus to fill you, he does and all you have to do is open up that mouth and speak in your tongues.
    It may sound foolish but God said he would profound the wise with foolish things.
    I think Bapticostal is a misnomer and instead we should say full gospel baptist for I believe in the Southern Baptist doctrine fully but I also speak in other tongues and believe the Gifts are for the church today.
     
  14. Joman

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    For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    (1 Corinthians 14:14 KJV+)

    What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding3563 also.2532
    (1 Corinthians 14:15 KJV+)

    Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    (1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV+)

    ---------------
    Fat Eagle,

    When you pray in "tongues" what language is that? where in the worl is that language spoken?

    There's not reference in the bible that shows that the Gift of the tongues was a NON-HUMAN language.

    (sorry for my english)
     
  15. Plain ol' Ralph

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    Bapticostals are nothing more or less than Pentecostals infiltrating the ranks of Baptists, even the adminitrators of BB ought to know that!!

    Baptists don't acknowledge the "glossalalia" as the Pentecostals do, simply because "glossalaia" is extra-biblical and ONLY a doctrine of the Charismatic movement, and false doctrine at that.
     
  16. Ben W

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    In 1Cor 13:1 Paul says that he speaks in both the Toungues of Men and of Angels.

    So what are the Toungues of Angels?
     
  17. Rich_UK

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    I'm not sure. Each time an angel spoke to man in the word, he spoke in their own human lingo. Thats always something that pentecostals and charismatics have used as a proof that paul spoke in languages that were not earthly. They'd say that because he spoke in the tongues of angels, it meant he spoke some sort of mystical heavenley language...I'm not sure what the tongues of angels were.
     
  18. Joman

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    Tongues of angels are TONGUES OF ANGELS. But Paul didn't spoke them.

    He is making comparissions to explain what LOVE IS.

    1. Do you think that paul understood all mysteries?

    2. Do you think that paul had ALL knowledge?

    3. Do you think Paul had ALL faith?

    4. Did Paul gave all his goods to feed the poor?

    5. Was Paul considering to give his body to be burned?


    Paul was not able to speak LANGUAGES OF ANGELS.


    ----
    Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and1161 have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
     
  19. mickd7

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    Paul indicated that he spoke in the language of angels so who are you to question him.
    The languages are not always known by the speaker, but we do not have to know for they are used to pray in the spirit to God himself unless they are the Gift spoken during a service and then it will be interpreted which has always been the case when I have witnessed it.
    I once went to a library and just by the sounds of words looked four words up in foreign dictionaries and the words were man, soul, salvation and peace. These were the words I had been praying over and over again in Hebrew and Spanish and I never learned a word of these languages. I have have also googled some words and they are always a language.
    Tongues are a mystery but of God and it is up to each person as to wheather or not they wish to have this wonderful gift. If you want them you can have them because Paul said he wished we would all speak in tongues but since most Baptist have been told from day one that tongues are of the devil and not for today they are bound by traditions of men and teachings in their church.
    I am thankful that when I got saved I was able to explore other christian groups and was open to all Gods truth and had the freedom to read and believe Gods Word without the tainting of man and traditions.
    Regardless of what the fellow here said about Pentacostals God is moving among the Southern Baptist today and many hearts are being open to the truth finally. Many are stepping out and receiving everything God has for them and for this I praise God.
    The Holy Spirit is not trying to change Baptist doctrine. Nay, he wants to fulfill them.
     
  20. BillyG

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    Paul indicated that he spoke in the language of angels so who are you to question him.
    The languages are not always known by the speaker

    Can you please provide the scripture for that.

    Thanks,


    Billy
     

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