Bapticostal

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by mickd7, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. mickd7

    mickd7
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    Hi there, I am a full gospel Baptist and I was wondering if there are any other Baptist out there that believe as I do that all Christians including Baptist can be filled with the Spirit , speak in tongues and the Gifts of the Holy Ghost can and should be manifested in the church today. The Bible says that God will pour out his Spirit on all flesh and your sons and daughters will prophesy and the Gifts will be used by God and this includes the Baptist as well.
     
  2. Bro. James

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    Hi, I guess I am one of those "half gospel" Baptists. I am born again of the Spirit, saved by the blood of Jesus, my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. I have never heard the Gospel in any language other than English. I have never spoken in a tongue which I was not taught or learned on my own. I can speak a little Spanish, Latin, Greek and Hebrew--words and phrases mostly. I have preached the Gospel--in English.

    What I have seen and heard called "speaking in tongues" on the television, makes me highly suspicious of the origin of such things. Most of these people are selling prayer clothes, holy oil, holy water, snake oil, videos, cassettes, books etc. etc.--for love offerings of course.

    My bible tells me to beware of such things: see Mt. Ch. 7.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  3. Plain Old Bill

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    Stick around Mick, don't let anybody run you off. there are 500 different kinds of Baptists and you will hear from many of them here. Most here will disagree with you,don't let that scare you, part of the fun here is our differences.
    I believe we are filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation. The Holy Spirit guides,teaches,comforts, and empowers us.I do believe in other toungues(as in other languages)not glossolallia. I will not get into an arguement over that.God is who we answer to not man.
    I belive God gives the gifts as He wills.I believe the elders of the church are to annoint the sick ,lay hands on and pray for them.I believe God performs miracles all of the time but it is He who performs them. We do not learn secret formulas to order God around if you know what I mean.On the other hand I am not against praying for a miracle.
    I've prayed for people many times and seen them healed by the Hand of God. Most of the people I've prayed for don't even know it I just hear about them and feel the need to pray for them.Now I can't tell you that God did heal them because of me or probably the many others who were probably praying for them too.Here is what I do know "when I pray coincidences seem to happen a whole lot more often then when I don't pray".So I belive in the power of prayer and God's promises in His Holy Word.
     
  4. Ben W

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    Absolutley Mick, Bapticostals are the new move of God in the world. Along with the rest of the Pentecostal Charasmatic movement.

    I have surfed over to the Full Gospel Baptist Website and you guys look like you have it going on. When are you setting up in Australia? Australia desperatley needs revivial and the Pentecostals are the ones to bring it.

    Are you familiar with the Pentecostal Freewill Baptists? They are another Bapticostal group.

    http://www.pfwb.org

    Welcome to the board Mick, you will be quite surprised at how many other Bapticostals hang around in here!
     
  5. USN2Pulpit

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    Ah...you speak of xenoglossy - the utterance of another language without the benefit of prior education in said language, or speaking or writing in a language entirely unknown to the speaker.
     
  6. Bro. James

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    The Gifts:

    And now abideth faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love. I Cor.13:13.

    Are we having difficulty with three?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  7. untangled

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    The PFWB are not anything like any Baptist church I've been in. They are more Pentacostal than anything. I just don't see the FWB heritage there. They are still our brothers and sisters in Christ.
     
  8. dean198

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    Mick - I have been working on a book for a few years on The Story of Radical Christianity - one of the elements to the book is the place of the power and gifts of the Spirit in Church history - you would be shocked at how much there is. Anyway, because of my interests, I have a large section on the early Baptists....let me share just a little (there is much more):

    Apostolic Messengers
    Thomas Grantham, a leader among the seventeenth century General Baptists, wrote:
    "The first Churches had a Ministry of many Apostles or Messengers, beside the chief Apostles. This Ministry was never taken away, or de jure made to cease. Therefore the Church of Christ has, or ought to have, such a Ministry of Apostles or Messengers to the end of the World."
    Primitive Christianity, Book IV, Treatise V, p. 159


    Anointing of Oil for the sick :
    "Thomas Grantham wrote: "The gift of healing, is not wholly taken away, if we dare believe our Eyes, or the persons who have been restored to health very suddenly, at the earnest Prayer of Faithful men, and often times in the use of that ordinance James 5:14."Primitive Christianity p.38.

    Morgan Edwards related the following example of the pastor Hugh Davis:

    "Some years before his death he had a severe pain in his arm, which gradually wasted the limb and made life a burden. After trying many remedies he sent for the elders of the church to anoint him with oil, according to James v: 14-17. the effect was a perfect cure, so far that the pain never returned. One of the elders concerned (from whom I had this relation) is yet alive [1770], and succeeds Mr. Hugh Davis in the ministry, viz, Rev. John Davis." Materials Vol. I, p.28.

    When Hansard Knollys (early Particular Baptist) was sick, he called for the elders to anoint him with oil:

    "I resolved to take no more physic, but would apply to that holy ordinance of God, appointed by Jesus Christ, the great Physician of value, in James 5:14, 15:—‘Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him:’—and I sent for Mr. Kiffin and Mr. Vavasor Powell, who prayed over me, and anointed me with oil in the name of the Lord. The Lord did hear prayer, and heal me; for there were many godly ministers and gracious saints that prayed day and night for me (with submission to the will of God), that the Lord would spare my life, and make me more serviceable to His Church, and to His saints, whose prayers God heard; and as an answer to their prayers I was perfectly healed, but remained weak long after." Quoted by Cramp.
    http://www.reformedreader.org/history/cramp/s06ch12.htm.

    The Old Baptist Union of Great Britain (of which I was a member when I lived in England) still teaches ‘the possibility and privilege of divine healing’, citing in support, 1 Corinthians 12:9, and James 5:14-15. It was practiced amongst the Shubal Stearns Separatist Baptists also.


    Baptism with the Spirit by Laying on of Hands after Baptism
    The General Baptist 1660 Confession says:
    "That it is the duty of all such who are believers baptized to draw nigh unto God in submission to that principle of Christ’s doctrine, to wit, prayer and laying on of hands, that they may receive the promise of the Holy Spirit (Heb. 6:1, 2; Acts 8:12, 15, 17; 2 Tim. 1:6), whereby they may mortify the deeds of the body (Rom. 8:13), and live in all things answerable to their professed intentions and desires, even to the honour of Him who hath called them out of darkness into His marvellous light."

    The General Baptist Orthodox Creed of 1678 likewise stated:
    "Prayer, with imposition of hands by the bishop, or Elder, on baptized believers, as such, for the reception of the holy promised spirit of Christ, we believe is a principle of Christ’s doctrine, and ought to be practiced and submitted to by every baptized believer in order to receive the promised spirit of the father and son."

    This doctrine of the laying on of hands is still taught today in some General Baptist churches, such as the Old Baptist Union, which has congregations in England, Wales, and the Netherlands. Henry Squire who founded the Union in the 1880s in Stoke Newington, London, had met with Six Principle Baptists in Rhode Island, where he learned of the practice. At one of these churches in Stockwell, a nineteen year old young man named Frank W Boreham received the laying on of hands. He was to become a famous Australian Baptist minister.

    He recorded in his autobiography (My Pilgrimage) how "it really did seem to me that a gracious tide of spiritual power poured itself into my soul, and, for weeks afterwards, I lived in such ecstasy that I could scarcely believe that the earth on which I was walking was the dusty old earth to which I had always been accustomed."

    Curing Demonic Oppression
    The year 1653 "One of the members of the congregation, sister Tylly by name, had a daughter then about – years of age, that was bewitched as termed; but the child was very much changed and had strange fits, and as it were haunted by an evil spirit, that it would say such a woman was in the room; though they carried it to Bath. The whole church put apart a day for it to seek the Lord by fasting and prayer, when brother Jessey was here, and the child was restored well as before and to this day. The glory only be given to our God."
    Records of the Church of Christ Meeting at Broadmead, Bristol 1640 – 1687, cited Henry Cadbury, George Fox’s Book of Miracles, p.3.

    Have the Gifts Ceased?
    In his work, St Paul’s Catechism, answering the question, "But are not the gifts of the Spirit ceased," Grantham writes, "No such matter! unless our unworthiness deprive us of them. Are not these exhortations still in force? Covet earnestly the best Gifts. Follow after Charity, and desire spiritual Gifts, and rather than ye may prophesy. Covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with Tongues."
    "the truth," he adds, "is that Miracles are rarely found, yet from what mine Eyes have seen, and from what I have heard by report from some, whom charity will not suffer me to think would affirm an untruth, I may not say (as some) they are not at all to be found."

    Hansard Knollys looked for a time when these things would be restored to the Church:
    "The gifts of the Holy Spirit shall be restored in the last days, [...] Acts 2:17, 18, And it shall come to pass in the last days (saith God) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh, etc. This is that which God has promised and will again perform … And it shall come to pass (saith God) in the last Days, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, etc. 1 Cor. 12:4, There are diversities of Gifts, but the same spirit. As in the Days of the Apostles, so shall it be in the last Days, Joel 2:21, 28, 29, much more poured forth… The Anointings of the Spirit, the Gifts and powerful operations of the Spirit will be upon Virgin Professors [both the wise and foolish Virgins] in the later Days."
    The Parable of the Kingdom of Heaven Expounded, 1674.

    Concluding Remarks
    Lastly, here is a quote from the Baptist historian Vedder concerning Baptists in the seventeenth century:
    "Fasting was a common observance, feet-washing was practised by many churches, though its obligation was earnestly questioned, and the anointing of the sick was so common as to be almost the rule. Pastors and deacons were often elected by the casting of lots, and love feasts before the Lord’s Supper were a common practice."

    Congragulations on being a "full Baptist"!
    Dean
     
  9. Plain Old Bill

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    USNPULPIT2,
    Something like that, but not as an everyday occurrance.When it happened in the Bible people got saved. So I would be skeptical if it were to happen and nobody got saved.I know some people who are very gifted at learning languages (they pick them up like some people do music)I would think more along those lines.
     
  10. Bro Tony

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    Mick,

    Welcome to the board. I too enjoy the differences I find here. There are many shades of Baptist, and even shades within the shades. I am not Bapticostal, but at the same time I do not believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. I believe they were given for the church and for the church age. My view of things would be close to that shared by Plain Old Bill. I do have a real problem with the understanding of the work of the Spirit as seen on the majority of "Christian" TV.

    You will find on this board cessationist and non-cessationist. You will find the moderate in each camp and the extremist in each camp. Variety on the non-essentials is a wonderful thing and helps each of us to see things from more than one way.

    Again welcome,
    Bro Tony
     
  11. mickd7

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    I can appreciate all the differences of opinions out there and I thank those that welcomed me to this board.
    When I say Bapticostal I mean that I believe what the SBC believe fully but I also believe ,as the words says, that the Gifts are to be in the church until Jesus comes back. The Gift of the Holy Spirit comes by the same faith that we got saved with. In other words you have to believe something to receive it. God does not force us to be saved nor does he force his blessings and Gifts on us. When I got saved I was born again and had a wonderful time but when I read that God wanted us to be filled with the Spirit ( since he did say be ye filled with the Holy Spirit) I asked him to fill me and sure enough I received the Gift of tongues and boy was that great. I felt totally fulfilled , thus full gospel , and dont get me wrong , I believe that every Christian that is born again receives the Holy Spirit and he is a child of God, but we can be filled with the Spirit also and that means that the Holy Spirit has more of us.
    True enough the Gifts of the Spirit are misused and abused today just as they were in the first church at Corinth, but that does not mean we throw the baby out with the bath water, but that we discern what is right and good and what is not, and that is where the leadership comes in play in church.
    I have gone to Pentacostal churches and seen the Gifts terrible abused and I have been to churches where everything was great, so just like any church ,Baptist included ,there are sorry churches and great ones.
    I go to a Southern Baptist church and they do not yet accept these teachings but they dont get in the pulpit and condemn Pentacostals and other Christians and this is what I appreciate and can live with, but there are other full gospel people in our church and I believe God is going to move in these last days and folks from all groups with receive this blessing. We sure need everything God has for us in these last days, if u know what I mean.
     
  12. untangled

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    Hey Mick,

    I forgot to welcome you earlier. So Welcome Brother!

    I'm glad your church doesn't condemn other true Christian denominations. One thing about the SBC I like is alot of the churches do have diversity. By that I mean one may be traditional, one contemporary and another mixed.

    Anyway, Welcome.

    In Christ,

    Brooks
     
  13. Phillip

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    I am a little bit amazed at the liberality being shown here. Pentecostalism is the fastest growing "Christian" organization outside of the "LDS" or their brothers.

    The denomination of non-denominalization and all of the "dramatics" that go with what began as the pentecostal movement and is now being accepted as general "Christianity" is taking away the gospels and replacing them with "praise and worship" to the point that miracles, erotic music (yes, I said erotic--music with full instrumentation that effects the emotional senses) along with mass hypnotic effects are confusing young people to the point that they cannot seperate real Christianity from the pentecostal movement.

    I have a good friend who's daughter is caught up into it and she won't even talk to him (he's an SBC pastor) because he hasn't been "baptized by the holy spirit" (and won't admit he needs to be) because he won't speak in tongues. So, in her book, he's probably* headed straight for hell. (*Probably--is another story.)

    If he or another family member gets sick, she tells them not to go to the doctor and if rebuking Satan doesn't take care of the problem then their faith just isn't strong enough...period.

    She has her five year old daughter "rebuking Satan." ("Oh, its so sweet how fast they learn.")

    Her church services consist of about an hour of ROCK music and another half hour of jumping up and down yelling things nobody can understand. A second BIG problem of the pentecostal movement is that you never know for sure if you are good enough to make it into heaven or not. If you think you are going to heaven for sure, you are just conceited (another sin).

    This my fellow Baptists is what you are looking at and this my fellow Baptists is what is going to infiltrate the Baptist church diluting the gospel of Jesus to the point where miracles are more important than salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as demonstrated by speaking in tongues) is more important than leading others to Christ. Praising God with emotional Rock music and mass hypnotics is the wave of the future.

    So, you good Baptists don't have a problem with these concessions?

    Have any of you visited Pentecostal churches to learn their doctrine? Have any of you actually compared the doctrine of the pentecostals (not just some friend's opinion) and compared them to Baptist beliefs?

    What I am hearing above is scary. Yes, I believe in healing, but I don't believe in demanding that God to heal someone or I have the must have a lack of faith.

    I don't believe that I will start speaking in tongues when I am "baptized by the Holy Spirit" as proof and I think there is more to spreading the gospel than jumping up an down to the beat of the new drums ramped up to 150 decibels.

    These are some of the things the pentecostals believe in and if you accept these beliefs you should simply join a Pentecostal church where you can yell jibberish all day.

    Sorry, for the tyrade but the liberalism of acceptance for non-Baptist beliefs shocks me.

    I now see how the Pentecostals are taking over our churches and causing them to drop away from their denominational roots.

    Maybe this upsets a lot of people, but how many Baptists know much about the Pentecostal movement? The movement that is growing at a rate of about six times that of Baptists?
     
  14. dean198

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    Phillip, none of us have advocated these extremes you speak of....I have advocated baptism with the Spirit following baptism by the laying on of hands, the gifts of the Spirit for today, and healing, but all of these doctrines are "Baptist." no-one has said anything about rock music, babbling away in gibberish, and other charismatic extremes (which not even all charismatics would accept either).
    Dean
     
  15. gb93433

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    Philip what you stated goes to show how well those in the SBC really know their Bible. I was shocked when I started pastoring some SBC churches. They took pride in how well they thought they knew their Bible. But the gut honest truth I was shocked at how poorly they did. Some friends of mine who left the Mormon church years ago have stated that the Mormons got the majority of their people from the SBC and RCC churches.

    You may not know it but the last SBC church I pastored was in the habit for quite a number of years of inviting the Mormon bishop to come and preach at events they sponsored in the community all in the name of fairness. Some of the deacons even told me they thought the Mormon bishop was a Christian.

    Cetainly I do not agree with Pentecostal doctrine but I certainly agree even much much less in inviting a Mormon bishop to come and preach. I don't think some of those so called baptist are so strong as the SBC would like us to believe.
     
  16. Plain Old Bill

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    Phillip,
    Please reread my post.I'm an old guy who has'nt been to a Pentecostol church in years. They were all singing Amazing Grace and I'll Fly Away when I left. As to the rest read my post, none of those things are mentioned or agreed to that you talk about.
     
  17. untangled

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    oops, I forgot only Baptists are saved.
     
  18. HeDied4U

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    previously posted by Ben W concerning revival in Australia..

    Here is a LINK to an article concerning revival. Revival starts in the heart, thus revival can start with anyone, whether they be pentecostals, baptists, or lutherans for that matter.

    Have you been praying for revival for Australia?? Maybe you are the one to bring it.

    Just my two cents worth on the subject.

    God Bless!!!

    Adam [​IMG]
     
  19. Phillip

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    Low blow, untangled. I never said that.

    All I am talking about is how pentecostal doctrine is becoming popular and the Baptist churches (SBC especially) are not smart enough to realize the changes in doctrine, because as gb mentioned, most don't even know our own doctrine.

    Sure, let's just forsake our denominations and join the World Church and worship God any way we want to. That is the trend of the end-times and guess what's happening: Even your Christian president has said it is okay for the Islamics to reach for God in their own way. (I voted for Bush, I can say that.)

    My guess, from your statement, is that you are either a younger person who has not been in a Baptist Church for a long time for you are relatively new to your Baptist Heritage. This is just a guess, but why other reason would you make a remark that "only Baptists go to heaven." Like I said, Low blow--and NOT a funny joke. :mad:
     
  20. mickd7

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    Phillip: Some of what you say is true and much is something you know nothing about. I have been a part of Pentacostal churches such as the Assemblies of God and the Church of God and just like any denomination there are churches that are wild and wooley and some that are right on, but all the ones I have attended loved the Lord as much as Baptist or maybe even more because the Holy Spirit helps them to be filled with love for him.
    Sure there is some rock music in the churches but just last week Jerry Falwell, on his tv program, said that he goes to places where rock gospel music is played, and he plugs up his ears and cant stand it, but the young people are touched by it , and if that is the case then Praise God for it. I agree with him , I cant stand the new contemporary gospel music and I like the old standard hymns, but I am a oldie now, and young people have their new likes, but if it glorifies God then praise God.
    The Pentacostals are far from perfect just as the Baptist are far from perfect, and the Baptist can and have learned from the Pentacostal bunch such as the contemporary music, praise and worship etc and even have full orchresters in churches and wow that is awesome, for music is something God uses to touch the hearts of people. Always has and always will.
    You are to narrow minded my friend and you need to liten up about other Christians and accept what is good for you and pass on things that arent and let others do the same and let God judge, if u know what I mean.
     

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