Baptism/Filling "with" the Spirit and Baptism "by" the Spirit

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Michael Wrenn, Sep 25, 2001.

  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    What would you say the difference is between baptism/filling WITH the Spirit and baptism BY the Spirit into Christ's body?
     
  2. JPCambetas

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    Dear Brother,
    It is my understanding, and up to now GOD hasn´t shown otherwise, that:
    - When you accept Jesus Christ as your only Saviour, you receive the Holy Spirit into you.
    - When you let the Holy Spirit work in you, He gives you the Gifts of the Spirit, and, this in some cultures/religions, they say you are baptised in the Spirit.
    - When you are baptised, you obbey the ordenance, Believe and be baptised.

    Again, this is my positio, although it is such a difficult issue to bring up as there are so many controversies.

    In His Name,

    JP
     
  3. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
    What would you say the difference is between baptism/filling WITH the Spirit and baptism BY the Spirit into Christ's body?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is no such thing as a "baptism in/with the Holy Spirit." When we are saved we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When we surrender to Him and submit to Him we are filled. That is it. Period. [​IMG]

    The "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" was a one time event on the day of Pentecost.
     
  4. JPCambetas

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    Amen Brother Thomas Amen !!!
    [​IMG] ;) [​IMG]
     
  5. donnA

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    I agre, no baptism of the Holy Spirit, it's not how much of the Spirit you have, but how much of you does He have.
    We from the moment we are saved have the Holy Spirit, all we are going to get of Him, God would not expect us to try to live the christian life without our 'Helper', to help us to live what He wants us too, we would have no power to live right without His power. So the quesion is how much of me does He have? Do I give Him al of me, seek to relinquish lyself to Him, seeking out those areas of my life that I have no surrendered, and give them over to Him.
    When we do this we become more aware of His presence in our lives, and live in His power.
     
  6. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    Thomas,

    So, do you believe that 1 Cor. 12:13 and Galatians 3:27 are saying the same thing? When are we baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ?
     
  7. DocCas

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    Michael, Paul, talking about the unity of the local congregation says: 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
    13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    14 For the body is not one member, but many.

    He is saying that the local church ought not to be divided, but united, ONE, together in faith, hope, and love. He then uses the ordinance of baptism to illustrate this. For by ONE spirit (it is the same spirit which lead me to follow the Lord in believers baptism as led the rest of our local congregation to do the same) are we baptized into ONE body (the one body of believers, in this case the one at Corinth) whether we be bond or free (we are united regardless of social status); and have been all made to drink into ONE Spirit (we all have the same Holy Spirit indwelling us and leading us so how can we be divided?). For the body (of local believers, in this case at Corinth) is not ONE member (all the same, I.E. his illustration of "hand" "foot" "eye" "ear") but many. Unity in diversity! Many different people with different gifts but all ONE local body UNITED in Christ and led by ONE Holy Spirit. [​IMG]

    In Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Paul is talking about our WALK in Christian Liberty. We have all been baptized (in water) into Christ (with a view toward His death, burial, and resurrection) have put on Christ (we now are in Him and we should therefore walk as children of light. It is about testimony not about baptismal regeneration either the water or the spirit kind. [​IMG]

    [ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  8. Michael Wrenn

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    Thomas,

    Do you not believe that there is a universal church--the Body of Christ--into which we are all incorporated or baptized by the Spirit when we come to faith? And I do know that little word "by" can also be translated "in" or "with".

    Don't you believe in a spiritual baptism as well as water baptism?
     
  9. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
    Do you not believe that there is a universal church--the Body of Christ--into which we are all incorporated or baptized by the Spirit when we come to faith? And I do know that little word "by" can also be translated "in" or "with".

    Don't you believe in a spiritual baptism as well as water baptism?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1. No. 2. No.

    Eph 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." That says it all. [​IMG]
     
  10. Michael Wrenn

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    Thomas,

    It does, and I believe it's saying spiritual baptism, without which water baptism is an empty ritual.

    But thanks for answering.

    I wonder if you would elaborate on your views; I'd be glad to read more.
     
  11. Lorelei

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    Thomas,

    I still disagree with you on this, but that doesn't mean that I don't like ya! :D .

    I think that we are "baptized" the moment we believe, at the point we are saved. I beleive the reference to one baptism is indeed talking about a spiritual baptism.

    Acts 11:15 (I mentioned this in another thread I know) Peter says "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." He makes no differences in the filling here and the filling that happened to him and the other apostles.

    On the day of Pentecost Peter says that this was a fulfillment of the Prophet Joel. Acts 2:17 "saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh" There is no indication that this pouring will be any less for everyone after the Apostles. It says it will happen to all flesh.

    Another reason that I have to disagree, is if you try to make all references to baptism mean only water baptism, then you are giving that one "act" a very spiritual signifcance that it was not intended to have. Water baptism is not a necessity to become a member of the body of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are "are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God", not by the water.

    Ephesians 1:13 says "whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" not sealed by our water baptism.

    John the Baptist fortold us that Jesus would indeed baptize with the Holy Ghost. He was talking with the Pharisees and Saduccees when he said Matthew 3:11 "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire". He was not talking to the Apostles here when he said "He shall baptize you", and he also spoke about baptizing with fire. To say that the "fire" referred to the cloven tongues rather then the fire of judgement does not make sense. Before and after this statement John is talking about just that. He is warning them of the "wrath to come" (v 7) and mentions a judgement type fire in the verse both before and after v 11.

    As for the difference between "filling" and "baptism". The baptism is a one time process that happens at the time of salvation and remains with us from that moment on (Eph 4:30) Even though the we have the Spirit, we must make the decision to "walk in the Spirit" day by day. Galatians 5:25 "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." This shows that one can have the Spirit but still needs to choose to walk in the Spirit.

    ~Lorelei

    [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  12. DocCas

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    "Spirit Baptism" is a man made myth not mentioned in scripture. The only "spirit baptism" was the one on the day of pentecost. Every verse of scripture addressing this event refers to exactly the same event. It happened once, never to be repeated.

    We are not saved by baptism, either water or spirit, but by the grace of God. We are not baptized into the family of God, we are born (again) into the family of God.

    The one baptism of Eph 4:5 is not spirit baptism, it is water baptism. Water baptism is the only baptism commanded in the Great Commission. It is only the hyper dispensationalists who claim that water baptism is not from this dispensation, but that only spirit baptism is valid for today. Water baptism is not the type of spirit baptism, there is only one baptism today. Water baptism is the type of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It always was, and always will be.

    Every believer, at the time of his conversion, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, not baptized by/in/with the Holy Spirit. Think of your water baptism. When you were baptized were you in the water or was the water in you? There is a big difference between baptism (you in the water/spirit) and filling (the water/spirit in you). [​IMG]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    A couple of thoughts:

    1. It is hard to imagine how Spirit baptism can be a “man made myth not mentioned in scripture” if “The only "spirit baptism" was the one on the day of pentecost.” These two sentences seem to be contradictory. How do we know that what happened on the Day of Pentecost was Spirit baptism if Spirit baptism is “a man made myth not mentioned in Scripture”? Furthermore, how is Spirit baptism not mentioned in Scripture if “Every verse of scripture addressing this event refers to exactly the same event”?

    2. As for Spirit baptism, it is mentioned in Scripture in the gospels as something to come and in 1 Cor 12:13 has something in effect. 1 Cor 12:13 very plainly says, “by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”

    Several points can be made on this verse:

    1) It is clear that this is baptism “by one Spirit” which of necessity precludes water baptism since the Spirit seems to have never baptized anyone by water. If someone has a passage in support of the contrary, please bring it forth so we can discuss it.

    2) If Spirit baptism refers to what happened on the Day of Pentecost only, then how does Paul say that Corinthian believers were baptized by one Spirit when the church was not even started and those folks in the church were most likely unsaved on the Day of Pentecost. Now admittedly this problem goes away if you define “en eni pneumati” as “en hudor” or some such thing. However, I do not think we have the liberty to say that “en eni pneumati” means anything other than what it says. I am still interested (as I was before when we discussed this in another thread) what “en eni pneumati” means if this baptism is water baptism

    The point of 1 Cor 12 is unity in the body and that unity is based on the fact that we all participated in the baptism by the Spirit. It is not an experiential baptism (i.e., not evidenced by sign gifts) but is rather positional, placing us into the body of Christ. There is no contextual basis to see 1 Cor 12:13 as water baptism.

    I would not argue that we are saved by Spirit baptism. Spirit baptism does happen at the moment of salvation and is distinct from indwelling and filling. But Spirit baptism happens becasue we are saved.
     
  14. Michael Wrenn

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    Lorelei,

    Good post; I agree.

    Larry,

    Hey, I do actually agree with you on something!
     
  15. DocCas

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    1Cor 12:13 is talking about water baptism and the unity of the local assembly. To try to twist it to mean the myth of "spirit baptism" is to do a great injustice to the scriptures.
     
  16. John Wells

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>At conversion, the believer is born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3–6). He is also baptized by the Holy Spirit, which unites him to the body of Christ, the church, and to Christ in His death, burial and resurrection (Rom. 6:3–5). Thus, by this one baptism (Eph. 4:5), he is in Christ indeed (Gal. 3:26, 27). The Lord Jesus Christ was described by John the Baptist as the baptizer (Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33), in the sense that He poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit (the Promise of the Father) after He had been crucified, buried, and raised to glory. Christ Jesus is the ultimate source, for He sent the Spirit as an ascension gift at Pentecost (Acts 2). Since Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is the agent who is baptizing; the Lord’s body is the element into which all believers are immersed. Spirit baptism is a miracle of God at the New Birth. We are then added to the body of Christ. Baptism by the Spirit must be distinguished from the filling with the Spirit: the baptism is never commanded; the filling is (Eph. 5:18). After Pentecost (Acts 8:14–17) the baptism is once and for all at conversion, while the filling needs to be repeated (Acts 2:4; 4:31). The baptism is positional; the filling is experiential. The baptism does not bestow power, but the filling does (Acts 4:31). - W.A. Criswell (Believer's Study Bible)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The church, the spiritual body of Christ, is formed as believers are immersed by Christ with the Holy Spirit. Christ is the baptizer who immerses each believer with the Spirit into unity with all other believers. Paul is not writing of water baptism. That outward sign depicts the believer’s union with Christ in His death and resurrection. Similarly, all believers are also immersed into the body of Christ by means of the Holy Spirit. Paul’s point is to emphasize the unity of believers. There cannot be any believer who has not been Spirit-baptized, nor can there be more than one Spirit baptism or the whole point of unity in the body of Christ is convoluted. Believers have all been Spirit-baptized and thus are all in one body. This is not an experience to seek, but a reality to acknowledge. MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Electronic ed.) (1 Co 12:13). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm glad I've been baptized by the Holy Spirit! ;)
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    1Cor 12:13 is talking about water baptism and the unity of the local assembly. To try to twist it to mean the myth of "spirit baptism" is to do a great injustice to the scriptures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If this is so, then why not answer the arguments that I put forth in my post showing why your position does not seem to fit with the text. I made several. Please address them.
     
  18. Chet

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    The passage in Eph.4:5 does not refer to water baptism. It is a referance to Spirit Baptism as the entire context of this Book is a spiritual one. There is ONE spiritual baptism. And it is clear in Scripture that there is more than one kind of baptism. Acts 19:1-6

    Here are other passages of Scripture given by Paul that point to the Spirit Baptism:

    Rom 6:3-4
    Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    NKJV

    Gal 3:27
    For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    NKJV

    Col 2:10-13
    and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the
    circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
    NKJV

    And by Peter:
    1 Peter 3:21
    and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    NIV

    [ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>quote:
    Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    1Cor 12:13 is talking about water baptism and the unity of the local assembly. To try to twist it to mean the myth of "spirit baptism" is to do a great injustice to the scriptures.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If this is so, then why not answer the arguments that I put forth in my post showing why your position does not seem to fit with the text. I made several. Please address them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Now into the third day and still waiting ...
     
  20. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry: Now into the third day and still waiting ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Be a bit more patient Brother, for the good Doctor is away on a conference. Right now only this little church mice is around, and he ain’t no answering your question. ;) But when Dr. Cassidy will be back, he will answer all your questions forthwith. [​IMG]
     

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